PS3 backward compatibility quality issues

[silhouette]

Maybe someone with PS3 on this forum can verify this.. There is significant quality difference between PS2 rendering and PS3 rendering (of a PS2 game). This is kind of suprising when considering full PS2 hardware is included in PS3.

 

[Carl B]

Well, the video opens up with 'no matter the cables..,' but as far as I can tell, they didn't actually use the component cables to test. This has been a documented issue with PS3 B/C, and as far as I am aware, is specific to HDMI output. Output through component is fine/in-line with PS2 IQ.

 

[Tap In]

there have been a couple of threads on NeoGAF with posts of terrible PS2 IQ issues on PS3 but as XB confirms I have also heard they are mostly with HDMI (60gig?)

something about de-interlacing the image

 

[archie4oz]

It's not an HDMI issue, it's a horizontal scaling issue (i.e. you'll see it with any connection) and you'll mostly see it with games that use 512 buffers and scale with the CRTCs....

 

[loekf]

It's not an HDMI issue, it's a horizontal scaling issue (i.e. you'll see it with any connection) and you'll mostly see it with games that use 512 buffers and scale with the CRTCs....

Not even scaling, looks to me a deinterlacing issue. If the PS2 EE engine outputs 480i and somehow the PS3 turns it into 480p you get this kind of effects if you use some "el cheapo" deinterlacing, like no decent filtering.

With all the horse power of the Cell BB engine, which is not even used in PS2 backward compatibility mode (the PS3 has a full PS2 chipset on-board), couldn't they really come up with something better ?

 

[n00body]

Keep in mind, the hardware was a workaround, not a solution in and of itself. It was slapped in at the last minute since Sony needed more time to finish the software emulator. So I suspect that they didn't put any time into making the hardware emulator do anything fancy, opting instead to devote their efforts to getting the software emulator up and running with said features.

 

[inefficient]

Keep in mind, the hardware was a workaround, not a solution in and of itself. It was slapped in at the last minute since Sony needed more time to finish the software emulator. So I suspect that they didn't put any time into making the hardware emulator do anything fancy, opting instead to devote their efforts to getting the software emulator up and running with said features.

I'm pretty sure that is a missconception. It was announced back at e3 2005 that BC would be provided by dedicated hardware and software. So unless in the gaming world "more than a full year and a half" is equivalent to the "the last minute" it was always part of the plan.

Also there is the fact that the ps2 did the exact same thing. The original ps2 had the ps1 chippery for backwards compatability. But eventually they moved it all to sw emulation to shave costs. Sony having experience with such things knows it takes time to perfect a good SW emulator.

 

[archie4oz]

Not even scaling, looks to me a deinterlacing issue. If the PS2 EE engine outputs 480i and somehow the PS3 turns it into 480p you get this kind of effects if you use some "el cheapo" deinterlacing, like no decent filtering.

With all the horse power of the Cell BB engine, which is not even used in PS2 backward compatibility mode (the PS3 has a full PS2 chipset on-board), couldn't they really come up with something better ?

If it were simply an interlacing issue then all PS2 games running interlaced would exhibit this behavior, and not all do, in fact quite a few *don't* exhibit this behavior (games running with 640 buffers). Nor is the behavior exhibited with PS2 games in progressive scan mode (which IIRC aren't using the CRTCs for scaling).

 

[n00body]

Inefficient, the hardware that they mentioned was the Cell. Sony plans to cut the PS2 hardware from future PS3s when they get the software emulator up and running in a reasonably stable state.

 

[Fafalada]

which IIRC aren't using the CRTCs for scaling

To be specific - GS CRTC doesn't do scaling in progressive scan, so whenever a game switches to 480P, it also switches to 640 sized buffer.

Not even scaling, looks to me a deinterlacing issue

That's just a coincidence - see Archies other posts and what I wrote above.

I'm pretty sure that is a missconception.

Nope, hardware was plan B, and the decision to actually use it really came very late
PS2 situation isn't really comparable at all because:
a) PS1 rasterizer was emulated through GS from day one
b) while the latest revision did remove original PS1 CPU, it replaced it with a new chip (which in turn uses some form of emulation) - which in turn means, PS2 I/O is also "emulated" on new PS2s
c) PS1 sound chip is afaik still there

 

[wco81]

So will they eventually enable software emulation through a software update?

Or will they just use software emulation in future models with the EE/GS removed?

Any chance of enhanced playback when software emulation is released?

 

[archie4oz]

Why don't you email Ken, Kaz, or Phil and find out?

 

[avaya]

So will they eventually enable software emulation through a software update?

Or will they just use software emulation in future models with the EE/GS removed?

Any chance of enhanced playback when software emulation is released?

The chipset will go. They have a whole PS2 inside the current model and tha is not an efficient design to carry into the future .

They've always said they want to make sure the emulation "just works" so I would not bet on them enhancing it. All that's needed is for them to fix the current IQ issues.

 

[Tap In]

everything that we currently know about the PS2 emulation issues

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=190

thanks to Dot50Cal on NeoGaf (who also posts here I believe)

with comparison pics at the link

After reading more than 500 posts on the PlayStation 3 forum and talking to a It is likely that this can be fixed through a firmware update, but only Sony would know this for surefew of the people affected by the issue, I now feel I have a better grip on the problem....

• The problem seems to be isolated to games that make use of 480i.
• If a game which makes use of 480p experiences the problem, switching on the progressive scan option seems to solve the issue.
• This issue is NOT related to TV sets or cables.
• The 1.31 firmware upgrade did not fix this issue.
• There are a number of theories as to what the problem is, but nothing concrete (I think those who claim this is a problem with the PS3's emulation layer being unable to handle horizontally scaled video are pretty close to the mark myself).
• It is likely that this can be fixed through a firmware update, but only Sony would know this for sure (let's face it, this could be another recall for Sony).

 

[Dot50Cal]

Yes I do, Ive been trying to get this issue solved since finding it for myself yesterday. You can see some comparisons I made here.

Thankfully a ZDnet editor has taken notice on the official PS forums and has started emailing Sony about it, and even made an article (linked above) so please digg it!

The video is right in that no matter what TV, or what cables you use it will exist. These shots I took are from RE4 using component cables on my component capable capture card:

PS3:

PS2:

PS3:

PS2:

PS3

PS2

Believe me when I say its horribly distracting and much much worse in motion.

 

[Bobbler]

Odd. I get the same horizontal scaling issue on my Slim PS2 with component cables on my TV. I distinctly remember them being distracting in the KH2 cgi, for example. It didn't happen on 480p games.

PS3 and my PS2 seem to give the exact same output for me -- horizontal scaling issue. It'd be a pain (and I wouldn't be able to do it this weekend), but if people really want, I can see if I can take a comparison picture.

 

[Nesh]

Odd. I get the same horizontal scaling issue on my Slim PS2 with component cables on my TV. I distinctly remember them being distracting in the KH2 cgi, for example. It didn't happen on 480p games.

PS3 and my PS2 seem to give the exact same output for me -- horizontal scaling issue. It'd be a pain (and I wouldn't be able to do it this weekend), but if people really want, I can see if I can take a comparison picture.

If its not that much of a trouble....

 

[PSman]

So this issue will ONLY happen if you play it on HDTV right?

 

[archie4oz]

Yes I do, Ive been trying to get this issue solved since finding it for myself yesterday. You can see some comparisons I made here.

Well for one, you won't see it on games with 640 buffers (even when running in 480i). My hair-brained theory is that games using non-640 buffers in interlace output typically would be scaled by the CRTCs on the GS. On the PS3 I figure the front buffer is being either read directly by the PS3's RAMDAC (probably not likely), or being copied out to the PS3's main memory before it's RAMDAC scans the picture out and not scaling it in the manner the GS does.

 

[Bohdy]

Wouldn't that be a fairly easy fix, then? Detect games with undersized buffers and run some fancy lanczos scaling on them after deinterlacing.