PS2 outselling XBox 360
- Thread starter SPM
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RancidLunchmeat you are obviously just a windup merchant.
Why so much aggresion towards me? I've never dished out anything, so back off...you have to realise people can have different opinions - I'm just explaining mine.
In your 'logic' world, I'm in McDs and want to buy my family a meal - but I should go to the back of the que because you just want a meal for yourself? Yeah - nice world you live in!
The point was MS KNEW my order exsisted they chose to ignore this and produce a product that wasn't wanted (as stated pre-orders were something like 10:1 MS made something like a 50/50 split. So MS KNEW there would be massive shortages to their pre-order customers, but they KNEW the core would sell out (due to people wanting a launch machine>waiting (which is a typical early adoptor)), they also KNEW their HDD would sell out (as nearly all early adoptors knew the HDD was a 'must'). MS launched the Core at the same time as Premium for one reason only TO FLEECE THOSE WHO COULDN'T WAIT FOR THEIR PREMIUM.
Why something so obvious is so hard to believe is beyond me, unless of course you have the inability to grasp other concepts than those spoon fed by MS?
Why so much aggresion towards me? I've never dished out anything, so back off...you have to realise people can have different opinions - I'm just explaining mine.
In your 'logic' world, I'm in McDs and want to buy my family a meal - but I should go to the back of the que because you just want a meal for yourself? Yeah - nice world you live in!
The point was MS KNEW my order exsisted they chose to ignore this and produce a product that wasn't wanted (as stated pre-orders were something like 10:1 MS made something like a 50/50 split. So MS KNEW there would be massive shortages to their pre-order customers, but they KNEW the core would sell out (due to people wanting a launch machine>waiting (which is a typical early adoptor)), they also KNEW their HDD would sell out (as nearly all early adoptors knew the HDD was a 'must'). MS launched the Core at the same time as Premium for one reason only TO FLEECE THOSE WHO COULDN'T WAIT FOR THEIR PREMIUM.
Why something so obvious is so hard to believe is beyond me, unless of course you have the inability to grasp other concepts than those spoon fed by MS?
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eb said:
In order to make that assertion you would have to know that MS loses more money on a premium than they lose on a core (which you dont).
My guess is that based on the cost of a 20G hard drive and the uptick of adding a wireless controller is <$100 so they probably make more (i.e. lose less) on a premium and would have no way of guarenteeing that core buyers would buy then go out and get a HD and/or wireless controller.
The reason why you may feel some people are out to get you is that you SHOUT assertions as the one above, seemingly without looking at it from both sides and presenting a better thought out argument.
expletive said:
Well, thanks but that was my first (actual) shout, bar when I feel it's important to highlight the odd word or two (so hardly 'shouting assertions' as implied - but I'll try to stop doing it anyway).
FTR I would hazard a guess that MS make more from a Core & HDD than they do a Core & Premium. And I'm almost certainly 99% sure also that MS make more from Core & Mem @ £240 than they do from Premium @ £290 !
RancidLunchmeat
Veteran
eb said:
No, what you are doing is declaring your opinion as fact, when it is anything but.
Again, I have to say, 'Huh?'. I suggest you actually take the time to go to a McDonalds or your fast food restaurant of choice and try to do exactly as you suggest: Order a number of different items.
Then watch as the person behind you, who orders only a single burger, gets their order before you get yours.
I'm sorry if in my crazy 'logic world', people with the most simple orders get served first.
But earlier you said people were able to buy the Core on launch day because that's what they wanted? How do you know the Core wasn't wanted? You said above that people were happy with it.
Or, they launched it at the same time because they had a HDD availability problem. Or a wireless controller availability problem. Or a headset availability problem. Or because they wanted to give consumers a choice. Or because (as I said earlier), the Core is targetted not for Early Adopters but for the general market after the price cut, and they had to launch at the same time to avoid the bad press of releasing a 'stripped down' console later.
Can you imagine what would happen if they hadn't released the Core at launch? What would happen if come March, they release the Core at $199? The bad press from launching a stripped down version would overwhelm the positive press from the price cut.
Now, if they drop the price of the Core to $199 in March, it's a great deal and they will get only positive press.
It's so obvious that all other possibilities are just immediately irrelevant. I don't think it's my inability to grasp other concepts that is in question here. I believe you are the one displaying an inability to utilize divergent thinking.
Sorry, Answering in 2 chunks as I'm bound by restrictions 
Well thank you for at least refraining from being rude this time.
However, the fast-food analigy (sp?) still doesn't wash - we're talking cheeseburger/hamburger here - nothing special, so I should (in theory) still expect a first come first served approach to my order - there may well have been a HDD shortage (to be honest this was my understanding, but I'm fairly certain this has been countered in this thread?), but if that was the case then still MY X360 should have taken priority over the seperate HDD - now surely this is a 100% logical assuption? I feel this arguement also answers and wireless controller/headset shortages as well.
Well thank you for at least refraining from being rude this time.
However, the fast-food analigy (sp?) still doesn't wash - we're talking cheeseburger/hamburger here - nothing special, so I should (in theory) still expect a first come first served approach to my order - there may well have been a HDD shortage (to be honest this was my understanding, but I'm fairly certain this has been countered in this thread?), but if that was the case then still MY X360 should have taken priority over the seperate HDD - now surely this is a 100% logical assuption? I feel this arguement also answers and wireless controller/headset shortages as well.
After all, it's been suggest how could MS know the HDD would sell? Well they knew that Premiums would so (in my mind) decided to run a 50/50 knowing that they would sell out of everything (which they did). I put it another way, why (pray tell) would anyone buy a Core and HDD? I do believe there is absolutely 100% 'I'll put my life on it' no reason whatsoever to do that - is there? However for some strange reason the released HDDs at launch? Strange that huh?
WRT Core 'unpopularity', the pre-orders showed that (next to) no-one 'wanted' the Core, so I don't quite understand your confusion? People had no option but to buy it or wait, I waited as I had no desire to (effectively) lose money on the deal.
Believe it or not, I do whole-heartedly agree that Core launching at the same time was for the reason you stated, however, they could have still launched with a higher Premium ratio - certainly launching the HDD at lauch was not at all needed.
WRT Core 'unpopularity', the pre-orders showed that (next to) no-one 'wanted' the Core, so I don't quite understand your confusion? People had no option but to buy it or wait, I waited as I had no desire to (effectively) lose money on the deal.
Believe it or not, I do whole-heartedly agree that Core launching at the same time was for the reason you stated, however, they could have still launched with a higher Premium ratio - certainly launching the HDD at lauch was not at all needed.
scooby_dooby
Legend
eb said:
K, well first of all HDD's were very hard to find at launch, most places did not have them at all, so that kinda puts a damper in that theory.
There is a reaosn someone would by a core + hdd, if they couldn't afford the premium, and only had $299 available plus money for one game, they could come back in a week or two, and get the HDD.
You are right to some extent though, on launch day I did see multiple people forced to buy a Core, and then searching for the peripherals all over the place. I bet that all added up to a pretty penny for MS. It was nowhere near the 50% you suggest though, more like 25%, which is still high, I'm sure MS knew that there was no way 25% of people wanted a core.
I don't really see what the problem is though, Sony and Nintendo have been fleecing people for years on memory cards.
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RancidLunchmeat
Veteran
eb said:
Well then what are you arguing about? You started this by saying the only reason that the Core even existed was for MS to be able to 'fleece consumers' and that anybody would didn't agree with this obvious opinion, was an idiot who believed whatever MS told them.
And as I stated previously, there are other peripherals included in the bundle besides just the HDD, so we don't know that the HDD was the cause for more Cores than bundles.
However, since there was certainly a lack of HDDs peripherals at launch, we might be able to make a logical leap to the idea there were a lack of HDDs, period. Which means you still wouldn't have gotten your bundle, and somebody else wouldn't have gotten their Core because MS wouldn't have offered the Core.
Do you have any numbers on how many HDDs were available as peripherals at launch? I imagine it was a very small percentage of the available Core units.
And my fast food example does hold true, just as my pickup truck w/ bedliner example holds true.
You wanted something extra. If you wanted the basic product, you could have purchased it. The fact that you had to wait longer for additional options to be added (at a discounted cost to you), is something that is actually quite common across industries.
You want bacon on your Whopper? Fine. But the person behind you who doesn't will get his order first. You want your Subway sandwhich toasted? Great, no problem. But the person behind you will get their order first.
You want a pickup truck with a bedliner already in it? Fine. But the person behind you that is willing to take the truck off the lot and put a bed liner in it later at greater expense to him will get his truck before you get yours.
Scooby, thank you. Someone can finally see what I'm saying.
Rancid, you seem to be unable to grasp a few things...
1) all the 'Premium extras' were around launch time, eBay (in particular) was 'flooded' with them
2) all I'm saying is that those components should have been used in the Premiums as a priority over being an accessory, but then I suspect MS make more out of accessories, no? Hence MS 'fleecing' it's customers as a lot bought the HDD on day one (and as I stated - why would you do that?
3) I've ordered the same product as a core, sure it has extra bits - but MS knew my order was there but chose to sell the extra bits as accessories.
4) I will forever disagree with how 'first come first served' does not apply, the only time that could be true was if I'd ordered something 'special' or 'different' or if there was shortages, but dues to the 'extras' being available I'm sorry but this arguement doesn't stand up (in my eyes)
Rancid, you seem to be unable to grasp a few things...
1) all the 'Premium extras' were around launch time, eBay (in particular) was 'flooded' with them
2) all I'm saying is that those components should have been used in the Premiums as a priority over being an accessory, but then I suspect MS make more out of accessories, no? Hence MS 'fleecing' it's customers as a lot bought the HDD on day one (and as I stated - why would you do that?
3) I've ordered the same product as a core, sure it has extra bits - but MS knew my order was there but chose to sell the extra bits as accessories.
4) I will forever disagree with how 'first come first served' does not apply, the only time that could be true was if I'd ordered something 'special' or 'different' or if there was shortages, but dues to the 'extras' being available I'm sorry but this arguement doesn't stand up (in my eyes)
RancidLunchmeat said:
Or if you make the correct ratio of premiums and standards in the first place (that match the market requirement), you eliminate this problem, and thus you dont piss your customers off.
Really MS should have avoided this ever being a problem. Which they could have done if they had of chosen to. There could have been some finincial gain in NOT doing so, which lets face it, wouldnt be the first time MS have played a little dirty.
Perhaps this is more the point?
kyetech said:
By accomodating the initial premium demand (to the extent possible) they would have had no core systems available. This would go against their strategy of establishing both sku's at launch as viable choices of the 360 platform. The demand would have soaked up every last 360 system for premium sku's and would have forced a later introduction of the core system while in the meantime still not fully meeting demand and pissing off customers. They were in a no-win situation in this regard and a shortage of quality memory did not help them. Also from what I understand there were a lot of preorders taken at game shops after their allocation had already been spoken for.
Theres really no way to prove one way or the other what MS' intentions were with their mix of premiums/cores at launch. I do think they needed to ship a relevant # of cores at launch though to show that they were serious about it being a viable option and that $299 SKU wasnt just on paper.
Since there were plenty of stores that had cores delivered to them yet no Hard drives, the idea that MS wanted to fleece customers by forcing them to piecemeal a premium just doesnt hold water (unless MS WAS doing that and just executed badly).
Since there were plenty of stores that had cores delivered to them yet no Hard drives, the idea that MS wanted to fleece customers by forcing them to piecemeal a premium just doesnt hold water (unless MS WAS doing that and just executed badly).
scooby_dooby said:
Just to clarify my points...there were HDDs at launch, be it just a few - there should have been none...there was no reason to launch the HDDs for a couple of weeks at least but surely those units should have been put onto the Premiums as a priority.
(point b) I was simply saying during the launch (first few shipments) no-one would buy a core and a HDD at launch unless they had no choice...why pay the same price for less? there may have been a couple of people who needed a 2 week break, but I do find that stretching it a bit to be honest - after all, they still had to buy a mem card so were hardly saving anything for the sake of a week or 2. no - IMHO there was no need for a seperate HDD for at least a month...and the wireless controller was freely available, so I see no 'real' reason for the Premium shortages (but the ability to buy a HDD add-on)
as for fleecing, my gripe is purely that the parts were there but used for other gains rather than pre orders.
expletive said:
numbers are (frankly) irrelevent (to a point) - the fact remains that HDDs were shipped ahead of Premium pre-orders, heck people who showed MS they had faith in them by placing a deposite on a unit were overlooked. There may not have been enough HDDs to satisfy every Premium pre-order but there were more than what MS shipped.
There were plenty on eBay - at a pretty price too...and still selling well when the 2nd shipment of Premiums came in.
RancidLunchmeat
Veteran
expletive said:
His argument isn't based in reality. The idea that any manufacturer of any product should focus on filling all pre-orders before they put products into the normal supply chain is ludicrous.
expletive said:
How about this arguement.
Microsoft filled all of the preorders that Microsoft received in the order that they received them.
In otherwords, if Gamestop ordered 10k units from MS, then the next day Best Buy ordered 50k units, then a week later Gamestop ordered another 20k units that MS sent Gamestop the 10k, then sent Best Buy the 50k, then sent Gamestop their next 20k units.
MS never took preorders from the general pubic, they have no legal obligation to fill those orders. They do however have a legal obligation to fill the orders that they took from the retailers, and probably did fill them in the order that they received them. Sure, they probably set aside a predetermined amount for Best Buy when they signed the promotional contract with them, but overall they were almost certainly filling orders on a first come-first served basis.
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