Provocative comment by Id member about PS2 (and Gamecube)!

[Paul]

Well then prove it! If you understand the bottlenecks in each system and how bandwidth is really utilized then prove it and explain to us how Xbox is mroe bottlenecked in bandwidth than PS2.

Xbox has a memory bandwidth of 6.4GB/S, the size of this memory is 64mb. It is of a UMA structure so EVERYTHING uses that bus, CPU, graphics, sound. And what is a HUGE bandwidth sucker? The Z read and write which is done on that 6.4GB/s bus.

Oh and I was never comparing PS2 and Xbox, but PS2 does have the advantage in the video bandwidth department. PS2's GS never has to go to main memory over the 3.2GB/s bus, it has it's own 4mb 48GB/s cache.

Yes you were, in your first post you said the following:

Yea, I was explaining HOW Xbox was bandwidth limited. GS has it's cache, Xbox goes through the 6.4GB/s bus.

Most people say that know what they are talking about say it has as much bandwidth issues as the other consoles. Only different ones.

Yup a issue in it's GPU bandwidth which is handeled through the main mem bus.

Hold on a second, you're comparing frame rates in the games YOU think are the best looking.

You have no argument here dude and you KNOW it. Go ahead, take a look at the graphics portion of the reviews for each of these games. I'm not comparing crappy looking games for the system here. It's far, these are some of the best looking games for each system.

You're also not basing the actual framerate of the game on anything more than a eyeball measure or word of mouth. Not scientifc at all!

Your just being sad now. Your playing a game is what your doing because you know you have nothing.

Brute force: 30fps - prove it

I own the game. It doesn't run at 60fps either way. 30.

Halo2: 30fps - prove it

Ask anyone, even Chap.

http://www.synae.com/games/xbox/halo2feature2.htm

mgs2: 30fps - prove it

Entire tanker scene runs at 30fps, most of the game runs at 60fps but with dips at frequent times.

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/376/376778p4.html

Voodo Vince: 30fps - prove it

http://www.nlgaming.com/nl/asp/id_682/nl/reviewDisp.htm

Fable: 30fps - prove it

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/402/402233p1.html?fromint=1

BC: around 30fps - prove it

Video's show it running at 30fps, and it's being made by the same dev making fable correct? And this game looks way better then fable.

Otogi: 50-60fps - prove it

I own the game.

Ninja Gaiden: 60fps - prove it

Your not serious? The game runs 60fps.

Sorry but I simply can't trust your judgement on things like this. you're far too biased to look at anything objectively

Funny, I'm not the one who can't accept the fact that most high end Xbox titles run at 30fps.

Why don't you go and try to convince some other console developers that you KNOW all these games are bandwidth limited and couldn't possibly have bottlenecks elsewhere.

The first thing you look at when it comes to frame rate is bandwidth, unless the system has such a horrible fillrate which is not the case for Xbox.

Here's someting for ya, EVERY console is bandwidth limited. try arguing with that.

Some more then others.

 

[Paul]

Ps2 substituted memory bandwidth for more ram. the added bandwidth it has means you can upload textures into memory or when they are needed faster. with less bandwidth.

That's how the Playstation architecture works. Lower ammounts of faster DRAM, this was the case for PS2 and from what we're seeing with ps3.

However xbox approaced this different and started with more ram, so you don't need to spend a lot of bandwidth uploading textures on the fly. You can just leave them in main memory.

Noone is talking about different architecture approaches here dude. We're talking about the fact that there are so many high end Xbox games running at 30hz.

they can't make the decision to forgo framerate in a console fps for legit reasons?

He was saying that they maybe did this because it would be better for the game, IE: 30fps is sometimes better in certain genre's. Not a system problem. I shot back with the fact that a higher frame rate is always better in a FPS.

 

[Paul]

But anyway, have fun with this topic everyone. I'm done here.

 

[Phil]

I really don't want to nitpick, but...

Quincy:

Of course I don't believe you. You HAVEN'T SEEN HALO2 running!! You've seena video clip, a video that is limited to 30 frame persecond!

I hope you are aware of the fact that video clips or any sort of motion pictures use bluring to make up for the lack of frames it displays. That actually means that a PAL video feed at 25 fps will look nearly as smooth as real live due to motion blur - something you will not find in todays video games as they use full unblurred frames and therefore need more fps for the same smoothness. Halo 2 is a 30 fps game - it's strickingly obvious and I'm pretty sure the developers themselves have confirmed this somewhere.

As for the framerate issue concerning Xbox games:

I can't help but agree with Paul that the majority of Xbox highlights do seem to run a very poor framerate in comparasment to PS2 games. I think the list he submited is quite accurate and represents about the correct framerate for most games. I disagree however with his stance that bandwidth is the major bottleneck.

Paul:

How do you conclude that bandwidth is a problem? Of course, I'm not willing to argue that it's not, but lets face it - each hardware has some sort of limiation, may it be memory, bandwidth or sheer drawing performance. Resources are never infinite, so you will always have some sort of limitation. To say that bandwidth is THE problem isn't quite correct if you ask me: after all, it's a closed platform and most developers program their games with the hardware in mind. 60 fps games are obviously possible on Xbox (i.e. DoA3), so it would be ignorant to argue that bandwidth is the reason for sloppy framerates in other games. Sure it might be A factor, but it certainly isn't THE factor. I think Xbox games being mostly limited to 30 fps has mostly got to do with the approach most developers seem to take. Xbox's main selling point has always been graphics and it being hyped "the most powerful next generation console" on the market - I think this may be the reason why many developers try to get the most out of the hardware and then end up with framerate issues (PGR2?). The very same reason might be also why PS2 games tend to be so geometry driven too, which can be argued both as a highlight or a drawback. All in all, every console has their faults and being in agreement with Quincy, framerate issues are often a design decision that were made with the bottlenecks in mind.

 

[chaphack]

Thanks mrwibble and archiez.

 

[Fox5]

Maybe xbox games are limited to 30 fps due to the system's shader performance? I know my geforce 3 sucked at any games with even mild use of shaders(both in speed and that it couldn't display them correctly..something just seemed wrong when the thing couldn't even run the nvidia tech demos properly), and even if the framerate was doubled it would usually only be about 30 fps, maybe an inconsitent 60 at some points.(hey, for the pal release they could lock the framerate at 50 fps!)

 

[chaphack]

Paul,

MGS2: 60fps
MGS3: 60fps?
ZOE: 60fps
ZOE2: 60fps
TMB: 60fps
Jack and daxter: 60fps
FFX: 60fps
The getaway: 60fps
GT3: 60fps
GT4: 60fps
ICO: 60fps
Tekken 4: 60fps
Silent hill 3: 30fps

Lets play the name game.
.....
ZOE2 -> highly unstable 60fps
FFX -> 30fps
Getaway -> unstable 30fps

Dont be forgetting:
Primal - 30fps
Suikoden 3 - 30fps + slowdowns
Midnight Club 2 - 30fps - 60fps on Xbox
Kingdom Hearts - 30fps
GTAs - unstable 30fps - gets a boost on Xbox
Gungrave - unstable 30fps
Xenosaga - 30fps

You go raging on Halo2 being 30fps, so what do you think KILLZONE fps be?

ERP racer pushes what ~30mpps at 60fps.
MGS2 Xbox IS 60FPS.

You are full of crap. period.

 

[Tagrineth]

Chap, that still results in 2/3 of PS2 blockbusters being 60fps while 3/4 of Xbox are 30fps.

That is a good enough point, that Xbox CAN be good with appropriate programming and PS21 CAN be shite with not-so-appropriate programming, but gee, ISN'T THAT OBVIOUS?

Hell, we could point out that Wreckless is the same frame rate across all platforms but has a massive overload of psycho effects on Xbox while having almost all of them turned off on both PS2 and GameCube...

Anyway, I digress.

Basically, for whatever reason, a larger percentage of Xbox top games are 30fps, and that's a fact.

 

[chaphack]

Chap, that still results in 2/3 of PS2 blockbusters being 60fps while 3/4 of Xbox are 30fps.

What do you mean by that? How did you get to that conclusion?

 

[randycat99]

Perhaps the question to ponder is what is the native, internal bandwidth of your plain vanilla GF2 videocard? How does that compare to what you find in the UMA configuration of Xbox? If it's a big difference (and that GF2 card is actually capable of 60+ fps with ease at 640x480 on a game such as Halo), that would be somewhat of an indicator.

 

[randycat99]

Maybe xbox games are limited to 30 fps due to the system's shader performance? I know my geforce 3 sucked at any games with even mild use of shaders(both in speed and that it couldn't display them correctly..something just seemed wrong when the thing couldn't even run the nvidia tech demos properly), and even if the framerate was doubled it would usually only be about 30 fps, maybe an inconsitent 60 at some points.(hey, for the pal release they could lock the framerate at 50 fps!)

I had wondered about pixel shader performance a while ago, as well. Also consider that your GF3 is probably clocking higher than the XGPU, as well. Having all of these effects turned on would have a direct effect on fps, regardless of how much polys/sec or plain fillrate you have under more simple benchmarking situations (i.e., the marketing numbers). It may just turn out that this is a "you cannot have your pie and eat it, too" sort of situation.

 

[Tagrineth]

Chap, that still results in 2/3 of PS2 blockbusters being 60fps while 3/4 of Xbox are 30fps.

What do you mean by that? How did you get to that conclusion?

Xbox

Brute force: 30fps
Halo: 25-30fps
Halo2: 30fps
Splinter Cell: 25-30fps
PGR2: 30fps
mgs2: 30fps
Voodo Vince: 30fps
Fable: 30fps
BC: around 30fps
KOTOR: 30fps dipping
Otogi: 50-60fps
PDO: 60fps
Ninja Gaiden: 60fps
Moto GP2: 60fps
DOA3: 60fps
DOA volleyball: 60fps


PS2

MGS2: 60fps
MGS3: 60fps?
ZOE: 60fps
ZOE2: 60fps
TMB: 60fps
Jack and daxter: 60fps
FFX: 60fps
The getaway: 60fps
GT3: 60fps
GT4: 60fps
ICO: 60fps
Tekken 4: 60fps
Silent hill 3: 30fps

ZOE2 -> highly unstable 60fps
FFX -> 30fps
Getaway -> unstable 30fps

Dont be forgetting:
Primal - 30fps
Suikoden 3 - 30fps + slowdowns
Midnight Club 2 - 30fps - 60fps on Xbox
Kingdom Hearts - 30fps
GTAs - unstable 30fps - gets a boost on Xbox
Gungrave - unstable 30fps
Xenosaga - 30fps

20 PS2 games - 11 of which are 60fps.

18 Xbox games - 10 of which are 30fps.

OK, so if I'd counted my conclusion would've been different. Well, that's an interesting one to think about... the proportion is actually about the same.

 

[Paul]

Chap, that still results in 2/3 of PS2 blockbusters being 60fps while 3/4 of Xbox are 30fps.

That is a good enough point, that Xbox CAN be good with appropriate programming and PS21 CAN be shite with not-so-appropriate programming, but gee, ISN'T THAT OBVIOUS?

Hell, we could point out that Wreckless is the same frame rate across all platforms but has a massive overload of psycho effects on Xbox while having almost all of them turned off on both PS2 and GameCube...

Anyway, I digress.

Basically, for whatever reason, a larger percentage of Xbox top games are 30fps, and that's a fact.

Tag just summed up my ENTIRE point in one reply. Thanks.

A majority of high end Xbox games are 30fps while many of the high end ps2 ones are 60. Case closed, I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Phil, while it's obviously not *only* the mem bandwidth, it obviously is one of the major contributers. There are high end games on Xbox which struggle to even maintain 30fps such as Splinter Cell or Brute force.

 

[Paul]

Insomniac has their own opinion as to why many high end Xbox games run at 30hz.

Beyond pipeline issues, we also use the IOP chip to decompress data on the fly in order to get the most out of the RAM space. Then there is the issue of shuffling several megabytes of textures into VRAM through the DMA each frame. To put it simply, I don't think anyone has ever overstated the complexity of programming for the PS2. But, on the other hand, the Xbox libraries won't allow you anywhere near the actual hardware, so there is little room for optimisation. Plus, the Xbox doesn't have the high speed vector units of the PS2, which may be why even the best Xbox games run at 30Hz. I seriously doubt we would have been able to make Ratchet and Clank run at 60Hz on the Xbox without drastically reducing the number of moving objects. So, ultimately, I think we've made the best platform choice for our game.

Not saying that it's true or not, but it's something to think about.

 

[Qroach]

Paul, this is just the thing, those are game you picked as impressive on Xbox, those aren't the games that I'd pick. not by a long shot. Yoou and a few others are making a genral statement about xbox while ignoring the faoctrs invovled.

when a game is LOCKED at 30 fps it's either a choice of the developer to trade off graphics or somehting else in exchange for the performance. By the way, if you want a list of games with 60fps on xbox that are the best looking on the console, then I'll give you one.

I find it funny how you picked a number of unreleased titles on xbox while pretty much only naming released titles on PS2. not only that, you picked a number of title only for xbox that were also avaible on PS2, such as splinter cell (as if ti wasn't one of the high profile games on that system

any here's my 60 fps list of titles that are "released".

Soulcalibre 60fps
Halo- 30fps
brute force: 30fps
kotr:30 fps
ralisport challenge 60fps
midtown madness 3 60fps
Tao feng (unstable 60fps)
ESPN NFL football:60 fps
NFL fever: 60fps
NHL 2k3: 60fps
NHL 2k4: 60
NBA2k3: 60
NBA2k4: 60
Splinter Cell: 25-30fps
PGR1:60fps
mgs2: 60fps
Otogi: 60fps
PDO: 60fps
Ninja Gaiden: 60fps
Moto GP2: 60fps
Moto GP1: 60fps
DOA3: 60fps
DOA volleyball: 60fps
Midnight Club 2:60fps
Maxpayne: 60fps

PS2

MGS2: 60fps
TMB: 60fps
Jack and daxter: 60fps
FFX: 60fps
GTA3:30fps
GTA vice city:30fps
The getaway: 30fps
GT3: 60fps
ICO: 60fps
Tekken 4: 60fps
Soul calibre: 60fps
Silent hill 3: 30fps
virtuat fighter:60fps
Primal - 30fps
Suikoden 3 - 30fps
Midnight Club 2 - 30fps
Kingdom Hearts - 30fps
Gungrave - unstable 30fps
Xenosaga - 30fps
Max payne :30

So playing your game, not quite so many 60fps high profile ps2 titles there I see?

Another thing you didn't take into account on your so called "list" is jus thow many of xbox games allow for 2 or even 4 players compared to the competition. it's just another thing tha tfacotrs into the final performance of a game. I think you'd be hard pressed to find ANY ps2 games that allow for 4 players split screen while keeping the performance at playable levels.

 

[Qroach]

Phil,

I hope you are aware of the fact that video clips or any sort of motion pictures use bluring to make up for the lack of frames it displays.

That would be true only if the capture source was a camera of some sort. Like say you went to E3 and recorded footage of a game with your camcorder directly off a montior. If the montior was displaying 60 frames persecond, or even 30 for tha tmatter you'll probably notice motion blur on your video tape.

If a game outputs it's own video clip (which is very easy to make on xbox) you won't get motion blur between the frames at all. it will just drop those extra frames when it outputs each frame to the video clip compressor.

Anyway, no matter what you do, you're still only seeing 30 frames per second on these video clips taken directly from games. Judging the framerate of a game (unless it dips below 30 is pretty much impossible) with a video clip.

 

[Simon F]

The other two systems are no less bandwidth limited than the Xbox. They're just bandwidth limited in different ways.

This is wrong.

Xbox is the biggest bandwidth limited system this gen. 6.4GB/S bandwidth for everything because of the UMA structure.

Sure PS2's main memory bandwidth is only 3.2GB/s but your forgetting that huge 48GB/s cache for GS. GS doesn't leech from main bandwidth.

As for your bandwidth arguments on non-PS2 HW, I suspect that you are completely forgetting that those architectures are very likely to have real texture caches. These would significantly reduce the need to access the external texture memory.

OTOH, the GS' memory is the texture memory (well, apart from significant % that has to be used for frame and Z-buffers!). It's not a true cache as commonly understood in computer terms. AFAIU, since that memory is so small, the application has to actively manage it, doing the swapping itself.

 

[Fafalada]

Is that a fair assesment based on your experience with the hardware?

Heck no.

 

[cthellis42]

If you guys want to extend and do a more interesting comparison, you might be better of snagging games that more "belong" in the 60 category, and see how the premium titles in those areas compare. FPSes, racers, platformers, 3d action/adventure, fighting games (though those would hardly seem something to brag about at 60 fps)... (Maybe sports titles, but those seem to be pretty simplistic and continually rehashed anyway.) Basically faster games which like more accuracy. I always hate seeing RPGs thrown around as "meaningful" mentions in the 30 FPS are, or games like that, because in all honesty there are a number of games--RPGs usually holding the most attention--that don't matter one whit going past 30 FPS, and I'd rather just see them look better. (Fable doesn't play like your typical RPG though. Not sure what KOTOR would qualify as. But for the most part things like FFX at 60 is a waste of time, and Xenosaga at 30 is not a head-shaker. Put 60 into cinematics if you like, sure, but it hardly matters anywhere else.)

 

[chaphack]

Basically faster games which like more accuracy. I always hate seeing RPGs thrown around as "meaningful" mentions in the 30 FPS are, or games like that, because in all honesty there are a number of games--RPGs usually holding the most attention--that don't matter one whit going past 30 FPS

Try playing Wild Arms 3 and then going back to Suikoden 3.