Provocative comment by Id member about PS2 (and Gamecube)!
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marconelly!
Veteran
Resolution of 640x448 doesn't produce any kind of low-res look simply because it's not being stretched over the available screen area - it rather has small black borders at the top and bottom, but since those borders are outside of the visible screen area, pixel size and proportions are the same.
This is wrong.
Xbox is the biggest bandwidth limited system this gen. 6.4GB/S bandwidth for everything because of the UMA structure.
Sure PS2's main memory bandwidth is only 3.2GB/s but your forgetting that huge 48GB/s cache for GS. GS doesn't leech from main bandwidth.
This is exactly why many high end Xbox games run at 30hz. Oh and so nice of you to bring up RSC2 and Ninja Gaiden, but you left out Halo 2, the BEST looking game on the system; along with a ton of others.
You guys love to come up with all these excuses, but face the facts; a ton of high end xbox games run at 30hz.
And your calling ME confused?
It's 4mb of e-DRAM with a bandwidth of 48GB/s. If your going to bash something do it right.
Paul,
The fact you are aguing on that point, proves to me you don't know what your talking about. Quoting the hardware numbers isn't how you understand WHY these systems are bandwidth limited in different ways. If you understand the hardware, then should be able to reason out the different bottlenecks each platform hass. Go ahead and list them out...
The fact you are aguing on that point, proves to me you don't know what your talking about. Quoting the hardware numbers isn't how you understand WHY these systems are bandwidth limited in different ways. If you understand the hardware, then should be able to reason out the different bottlenecks each platform hass. Go ahead and list them out...
Don't believe me? Tell me, why can't Halo 2 run 60fps on Xbox? There is a simple reason. Bandwidth.
Oh and why do most high end Xbox games run at 30fps? Please explain it, it's a bandwidth issue.
I'll list a few for Xbox and PS2.
Xbox: 6.4GB/s main memory bandwidth for everything, everything uses that bus. CPU, GPU, sound.
Xbox: CPU could have been a wee better
PS2: 4mb of e-dram, while fast it's not enough. Needed 8-12.
PS2: Poor GPU features
Oh and why do most high end Xbox games run at 30fps? Please explain it, it's a bandwidth issue.
I'll list a few for Xbox and PS2.
Xbox: 6.4GB/s main memory bandwidth for everything, everything uses that bus. CPU, GPU, sound.
Xbox: CPU could have been a wee better
PS2: 4mb of e-dram, while fast it's not enough. Needed 8-12.
PS2: Poor GPU features
No... (with the possible exception of the last, but that's mainly due to not optimizing art assets for the relatively few MIP levels the GS suppports along with tuning assets for bilinear (or tri if you have a particular object that needs and you don't mind the performance penalty)). That and perhaps abusing the flicker filter...
randycat99
Veteran
Here's a question- What fps does Halo run on a full-out PC system? Does it matter if it is an nForce board or a conventional motherboard? Does it break through 30 and scale according to CPU clock or GPU series?
randycat99 said:
Halo Beta 1.5 w/ Fraps
with a radeon 9800 pro
61.4 fps at 1024x768
43.07 fps at 1280x1024
34.59 fps at 1600x1200
http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/video_cards/ati_vs_nvidia/dx9_desktop/002.htm
w/ a radeon 9800 pro 256 Mo
92,06 fps at 1024x768
http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=431&pid=1535
w/ a radeon mobility 9600 pro
34.6 fps at 1024x768
http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/video_cards/mobile/dx9_titans/002.htm
Of course I don't believe you. You HAVEN'T SEEN HALO2 running!! You've seena video clip, a video that is limited to 30 frame persecond!
Did you ever think halo 2 could be transform, or even fillrate limited? No, of course not! The only thing you can safely confirm is that is that IF halo is capped at 30 it's a design decision the developers made. Every game out ther eis made with design decisions. soe want it to be 60 while other want it to be 30.
The fact is all these platforms have different bottlenecks associated with bandwidth. You obviously don't know anything about that, so don't go telling people they are wrong unless you can clearly write out the different bottle necks in each system.
please, let's NOT start with this argument again. it's pure BS and you really DON't know what games are running at 30 fps on both paltforms.
Your biased plain and simple. I don't know which high end xbox games run 30hz? Funny, I have alot of them.
Yea right. FPS's are supposed to be high in frame rate. Are you telling me Bungie chose 30 instead of 60? Your full of it.
Oh and halo 2 = 30fps. This has been proven. And are you really going to try the fact that all these 30fps and dipping below that high end games are fillrate or transform limited?
I'm biased am I? You're the one here trying to say xbox is more bandwidth limited than PS2 without really undestanding or explaining why that is!
Are you claiming that bungie didn't make a decision to cap Halo 1's frame rate to a maximum of 30? Of course they made a decision to do that, it didn't happen by it self!
Proven where? Oh, unless that's a biased question? Like I said, nobody has seen the game running that close, let alone a final version of the game. Also I wouldnt be suprised if bungie capped the framerate to not go above 30 again.
No, I said they COULD be fillrate or transform limited. You simply don't know unless the devleoper tells you! Only a fan would go around claiming to know the exact performance bottlenecks in a game without having seen the code itself or any evidence to back it up (such as benchmarking).
I DO understand why it is, but no I wasn't comparing it directly to PS2 the whole time. Most people agree, the system does have bandwidth issues.
I'm taking the best looking games for each system here and comparing frame rates. Feel free to add any I missed. Just make sure they look damn good. IE: Some of the best looking games for each system.
Xbox
Brute force: 30fps
Halo: 25-30fps
Halo2: 30fps
Splinter Cell: 25-30fps
PGR2: 30fps
mgs2: 30fps
Voodo Vince: 30fps
Fable: 30fps
BC: around 30fps
KOTOR: 30fps dipping
Otogi: 50-60fps
PDO: 60fps
Ninja Gaiden: 60fps
Moto GP2: 60fps
DOA3: 60fps
DOA volleyball: 60fps
PS2
MGS2: 60fps
MGS3: 60fps?
ZOE: 60fps
ZOE2: 60fps
TMB: 60fps
Jack and daxter: 60fps
FFX: 60fps
The getaway: 60fps
GT3: 60fps
GT4: 60fps
ICO: 60fps
Tekken 4: 60fps
Silent hill 3: 30fps[/quote]
Well then prove it! If you understand the bottlenecks in each system and how bandwidth is really utilized then prove it and explain to us how Xbox is mroe bottlenecked in bandwidth than PS2.
Yes you were, in your first post you said the following:
"Xbox is the biggest bandwidth limited system this gen. 6.4GB/S bandwidth for everything because of the UMA structure."
"Sure PS2's main memory bandwidth is only 3.2GB/s but your forgetting that huge 48GB/s cache for GS. GS doesn't leech from main bandwidth."
How is that "not" comparing Xbox to PS2? lol, and you claimed I'm biased?
Most people say that know what they are talking about say it has as much bandwidth issues as the other consoles. Only different ones.
Hold on a second, you're comparing frame rates in the games YOU think are the best looking. That's pretty subjective and you left lot's out IMO. You're also not basing the actual framerate of the game on anything more than a eyeball measure or word of mouth. Not scientifc at all!
Xbox
Brute force: 30fps - prove it
Halo: 25-30fps
Halo2: 30fps - prove it
Splinter Cell: 25-30fps
PGR2: 30fps
mgs2: 30fps - prove it
Voodo Vince: 30fps - prove it
Fable: 30fps - prove it
BC: around 30fps - prove it
KOTOR: 30fps dipping
Otogi: 50-60fps - prove it
PDO: 60fps
Ninja Gaiden: 60fps - prove it
Moto GP2: 60fps
DOA3: 60fps
DOA volleyball: 60fps
Sorry but I simply can't trust your judgement on things like this. you're far too biased to look at anything objectively. Why don't you go and try to convince some other console developers that you KNOW all these games are bandwidth limited and couldn't possibly have bottlenecks elsewhere.
Here's someting for ya, EVERY console is bandwidth limited. try arguing with that.
Sigh.
I have stayed out of these threads in the past, mostly because I have no consoles anyway, although I like to hear people whine and bicker and fight about which is the best. LOL
Try to be a little unbiased, and take a look from the other persons perspective once and a while.
That said, I must put in my two cents: "XBOX games at 30 fps" is not because of bandwidth issues. The xbox is essentially a PC, I'm sure you guys agree. At lower resolutions, a PC is what? CPU limited! That's why we can get 500 fps (
) in Quake 3 using a 3.2 ghz p4 EE at 640x480.
That's not to say NV2A isn't holding the system back, either, but I feel the system is woefully underpowered in the CPU department. The bandwidth to get data to the CPU and other components is sufficient for what it does.
PS2 is more bandwidth dependant because it has a very different architecture than the xbox(which essentially = pc, which are piddling around with a few GB/s bandwidth for everything except the graphics card).
/I had a gamecube for about 3 months, played through Windwaker, and sold it
I have stayed out of these threads in the past, mostly because I have no consoles anyway, although I like to hear people whine and bicker and fight about which is the best. LOL
Try to be a little unbiased, and take a look from the other persons perspective once and a while.
That said, I must put in my two cents: "XBOX games at 30 fps" is not because of bandwidth issues. The xbox is essentially a PC, I'm sure you guys agree. At lower resolutions, a PC is what? CPU limited! That's why we can get 500 fps (
) in Quake 3 using a 3.2 ghz p4 EE at 640x480.That's not to say NV2A isn't holding the system back, either, but I feel the system is woefully underpowered in the CPU department. The bandwidth to get data to the CPU and other components is sufficient for what it does.
PS2 is more bandwidth dependant because it has a very different architecture than the xbox(which essentially = pc, which are piddling around with a few GB/s bandwidth for everything except the graphics card).
/I had a gamecube for about 3 months, played through Windwaker, and sold it
randycat99
Veteran
That is sort of the point I was trying to crouch earlier. If a PC with an nForce board can pull off higher fps at 640x480 with just a faster CPU, then that would seem to suggest that bandwidth is not an issue. OTOH, if these PC's are using a high performance graphics card on the AGP bus, that would take a step in the other direction suggesting that maybe the series of the XGPU simply doesn't have power to do full effects and maintain a decent FPS fps or maybe bandwidth is an issue since in the PC the rendering effects operations have been consolidated back onto local video memory (off of the "unified" main memory as it would be in the Xbox). Suffice to say, there is a weak link in there somewhere that prevents the Xbox from reaching more proper 60 fps performance. It could be the CPU, could be the GPU, could be bandwidth to unified memory. Perhaps we'll never know for sure unless somebody was in the particular situation where they could mix and match parts and do some tests to isolate the source of the problem.
Paul doesn't seem to get this. Ps2 substituted memory bandwidth for more ram. the added bandwidth it has means you can upload textures into memory or when they are needed faster. with less bandwidth.
However xbox approaced this different and started with more ram, so you don't need to spend a lot of bandwidth uploading textures on the fly. You can just leave them in main memory.
However xbox approaced this different and started with more ram, so you don't need to spend a lot of bandwidth uploading textures on the fly. You can just leave them in main memory.
randycat99
Veteran
Qroach said:
If only you could be equally as critical to Chap's remarks...
Some sort of bandwidth has to be used in order for the GPU to physically get the texture into the rendering frame. It doesn't know they are there by telepathy. Either it's got to load it to a local cache or read from main memory and render the result somewhere. Bandwidth will get used no matter how it happens.
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