Pricing Discussions around AMD VEGA *over-flow*

Discussion in 'Architecture and Products' started by pharma, Aug 17, 2017.

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  1. xEx

    xEx
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    Then why would AMD make this move to cover the real MRSP of vega and going so far of even sell first cards at a loss?
     
    #141 xEx, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  2. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    Applying Occam's Razor leads me to believe that Vega's performance at launch vs the competition is dictating that they sell at a certain price but that price is not viable for AMD, the board manufacturers and the retailers to all make a reasonable profit. AMD are addressing this by either subsidizing part of the cost for the retailers, enabling them to sell at the competitive price, or bundling some value-adds to justify selling at a price that is viable. Of those options, the former is less desirable for AMD as it is just a straight cash payout. The value-add proposition is almost certainly less directly expensive to AMD as the other parties involved in the bundle take on some of the cost. In addition, the game and hardware discount bundles make the product more appealing for gamers and less appealing for miners with the latter having the additional benefit of creating more buy-in to AMD's hardware ecosystem.

    Therefore, for them, the direct cash subsidy is the least desirable option and they are going to do it as little as they can get away with. They are probably hoping that, in time, the competitive price becomes viable without the subsidy and they can use the bundling purely as an AMD platform buy-in incentive.
     
    #142 mrcorbo, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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  3. pharma

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    Did AMD Deceive Consumers w/ Vega Pricing?
     
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  4. manux

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    I don't believe there is any way vega 64 is cheaper to manufacture than titan pascal. 64 has similar chip size and all functionality present just the same as titan. 64 also has hbm2 memory which undeniably is more expensive to buy than gddr5x and more difficult to package due to interposer. 56 is cut down and akin comparison to 1080ti. It's no surprise the initial msrp might have been painfully difficult for amd and only a poor marketing stunt that backfired.

    Is amd the customer who is willing to:
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/11690/sk-hynix-customers-willing-to-pay-more-for-hbm2-memory

    I wonder if 1080ti and price cuts at that time caught amd by surprise. They maybe were not expecting any upgrades from nvidia this year and hence the poor volta yet there was another pascal and price cuts coming out?

    Are there any rumours about 4GB vega? I think that was supposedly the product that could punch above it's memory capacity thanks to caching?

    I wonder if amd is binning and saving some of the better chips for apple. I don't think apple would be very happy with the power consumption of current vega chips.
     
    #144 manux, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  5. CarstenS

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    I think with apple not being as performance „competitive“ as the windows world, they can afford to run the chips there at the inflection point of the power/performance curve and not have to manually force it beyond that because of missing 3-5% compared to a competing product. Ah, the joys of non-competition (in the apple world, that is).
     
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  6. Malo

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    It could be as simple as comparative performance. Given the size, complexity and memory choice, we have to assume that Vega is considerably more expensive to manufacture than GP104. A lot of the extra parts of Vega introduced are focused on compute to cater for more professional markets but these don't necessarily translate to gaming performance currently. In the end they end up with a GPU that in general gaming performs on par with GP104 so they can't exactly price it at 1080ti level which they likely really wanted to do.

    It's likely Nvidia's price cuts killed their ability to try and make clear profits from Vega from general consumers.
     
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  7. xEx

    xEx
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    My commend was in response of someone saying that that wasn't the case and that VEGA is cheaper than 104.
     
  8. Malo

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    Ah I see. Then I have no idea.
     
  9. Rootax

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    About price and size, I guess size isn't everything. If the chip is badly designed or the process not good for chip that complexe, well...
     
  10. w0lfram

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    Since when has discussing hardware become an emotional thing ?
    Subsequently, I don't consider what someone else is going to do with their GPU when I am buying mine. Why all the nvidia justification? (and camping?)


    I am a gamer looking for the fullest high-end gaming experience. And am currently building a new TR4 (forward looking) gaming rig. That is also why I am choosing an RX Vega 64 on water, or a rumored RX Vega x2 (infinity fabric) on water. Because AMD's Radeon brand support the absolute latest gen technology and supports everything else coming down the pipe.

    Now, only if I could find a "package" or $200 off voucher for the Acer XR38 (38" FreeSync Monitor 3840 x 1600 75hz), plz. Something like that bundle/pack would be a tag-team combo to be dealt with. Both for $1,399..?


    I don't mind waiting for RX availability, because memory prices and PSU prices have skyrocketed too.

    And all the threadripper mobos are sold out. I would have nothing to put my new GPU in. I suspect these manufacturers are trying to newsline "inventory levels" and these "unable to meet demand" soundbits we always hear. Because the holiday shopping season is coming and want artificially high prices for xmas builds.

    Honestly, let see how long the 960 EVO (500gb) will stay at above $199.
     
  11. pharma

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    http://www.tweaktown.com/news/58802/amd-addresses-radeon-rx-vega-pricing-stock-issues/index.html
     
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  12. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Okay. I know I started this and I got a thread over at OC UK I gotta answer too to. People keep asking me to ask everyone I know about it and I have been and I've been getting a lot of answers and some are right some are wrong some are good and some are bad, but after analyzing it all and a lot of soul searching I think I can say and answer with heartfelt conviction;

    fuck. :(
     
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  13. Alexko

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    Sorry Digi, but I can't tell whether you're serious or joking. In the latter case I'm with you, in the former, can anyone make a convincing argument as to why anyone should care about this?
     
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  14. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Not joking, not feeling very happy or proud right now. What I know for sure I can't talk about, but I think I can say that if I'm understanding the situation right (and I'm leaving room for doubt that I'm wrong, I'm hoping to hear back from someone saying so but I'm not holding my breath either) then it rubs me the wrong way very badly and I think could be/have been handled much better and makes me disappointed with a company I happen to hold in great regard. :(

    So no Alexko, I'm not joking. I really looked in to it with a number of contacts from all over and I don't like what I'm hearing at all. No sarcasm, no defense, belly up admission that this looks/smells/probably is bad.

    I love AMD, but I ain't gonna say they do no wrong especially when it looks like they're not shooting quite straight with this one. I really, REALLY don't like saying that at all; but I got this thing for the truth so I feel I had to.

    Clear enough? Or ya want me to post a selfie of my sad face, because I'm wearing one. :(
     
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  15. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    There was this console trying to enter the market you should look in to the history of, I forget the name of the company that was making it but they were definitely selling their xboxes at a loss.

    It isn't at ALL unprecedented. Profits for market share growth for future profits or anticipating manufacturing costs will drop, I'd think of other examples but I'm depressed. :(
     
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  16. rcf

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    I guess we could put ourselves in AMD's shoes. What do you do when you're low on cash and your latest product is expensive to make but has to be sold "cheaply"?
    What should AMD have done?
    And don't get depressed dude, AMD is still mostly a x86 company and Ryzen is good enough to carry it forward, and a better GPU will come eventually.
     
  17. Malo

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    Thanks for the posts digi. I feel like we've discussed this to death now anyway.
     
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  18. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    That's one of the things that distinguishes the Enthusiasts from the Fanboys. Good on you for being firmly in the former group.
     
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  19. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    Based on the reaction from enthusiasts, retailers, and the influencer community/enthusiast press: Not this.

    They were definitely in a no-win situation, but better to have people questioning a company's ability to execute instead of their integrity.

    Expect to see a lot of variations of this for the foreseeable future.

    [​IMG]
     
    #159 mrcorbo, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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  20. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Dangerously Mirthful
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    Hey, wait just a tick! I didn't say this was over, I said I was disappointed! My personal theory is that the reason AMD hasn't given a straight answer on this yet is because they don't know what their answer will be yet. I know a lot of people are fighting like hell to get the original prices to stick, but I'd assume there are a lot of bean counters fighting back. I'm not ready to give up on AMD just yet, I'm gonna wait and see what they do with the next batch of cards and then I think we'll all know what the what is.

    Also, sidenote, I think Vega has a hell of a lot more performance left on the table that will be done through updates and I also am a bit miffed at all the reviewers who are just emphasizing the max power draw of it without any of the power saving features it seems. This thing is made to be efficient, and if you enable the power saving options you draw a whole lot less power and still get excellent performance. I also think the power efficiency is going to improve a lot.

    It took me a few weeks, but I'm starting to finally understand infinity fabric and the vega architecture a little I think and all the stuff I got on the deep dives is starting to sink in and make sense. I'm thinking this card is gonna have some serious legs and is gonna be one that will last gamers for a lot longer than most.

    If we can buy them....
     
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