Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Acert93, Jun 12, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DoctorFouad

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah thats basically what I said in a previous post, I should add that it works also vice versa, I mean Microsoft or sony could ask developers what they really want to be improved in their hardware offerings.

    The idea of competitors copying each other is nothing new, it is how the market economy function, and this doesent have to be through law infringement, there are different ways to explore what your competitor is doing (reading financial statements and future plans of the company, how much is spent on R&D, looking at new products in exhibitions and closed doors presentations, which contracts for chipset design and production have been signed, when was that, and with whom, information gathered from multiplatform developers...etc).

    exactly, and I wont be surprised if both consoles end up not only with the same amount of RAM, but also the same bandwidth, and the same CPU/GPU performance target, if they basically signed contracts with the same AMD company, how much different the chipsets would be...:lol:

    thats not really true, there is what we call better more intelligent and efficient engineering, I would give the example of xbox360 GPU, the silicon budget is smaller than that of the PS3 RSX but it ended up being in real applications more powerful than RSX because it was a lot more efficient (edram for bandwidth, unified shaders).


    again thats another hypothesis, there is no way today me or you can say about how much sony is allocating money and resources to its ps4 prject development....it could end up being the most important project for sony these last years, and that they dont want to screw it, and are willing to take huge risks regarding the finance of the project, maybe not ps3 kutaragi level risks, but nonetheless huge risk...who knows...
     
  2. lefizz

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    2
    But seeing as Sony has little cash and effectively can't borrow how would they do that? Sell a division to finance PS4?

    As its one of their only brands which is worth anything today IMHO it could be worth while, but I can't see it.

    Better to sell a capable but not far of profitable console and concentrate on supporting the Devs. They can't win a power race with MS but there is more than one way to skin a cat.
     
  3. arijoytunir

    Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    12
    Sony needs a turnaround like Nintendo did with wii after GameCube !
    Ps4 must be affordable like wii u but much more powerful than it !
    The real competetion for next gen consoles will be the long rumoured Apple TV . If apple pulls off the strategy of introducing incremental upgrades like the iPhone and iPad every year with Apple TV then I can't imagine the harm it will do to Nintendo ,Sony and Microsoft , like it did with 3ds and ps vita.

    Nvidia 's maxwell is said to combine high performance arm CPU with nvidia gpu .
    Can't the next gen consoles combine custom arm CPU cores (like apples swift architecture ) with amd custom gpu ?
     
    #16543 arijoytunir, Dec 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2012
  4. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,607
    Likes Received:
    11,036
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    I was going to say the same. However, that transition has been made, and is the only one that would really deliver (other than borked implementations of hardware). If AMD had some amazing new architecture that could gain much better performance from the same silicon, don't you think they'd be releasing that as their main product line? Unless Sony have a magic new rendering process and are working with AMD to produce it for PS4 exclusively, against the intelligent rumours we are getting, then the GPU limits will be the same for Sony as everyone us - a factor of cost: size: performance. There are no new areas of efficiency to be tapped.
     
  5. upnorthsox

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    1,909
    Likes Received:
    232
    It's not a race though, if Sony comes out with a more powerful console then that's that (and vice versa). It's not like MS will just top it with a new one a year later.
     
  6. DoctorFouad

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    the efficiency of the Xenos wasent due only to the unified shaders architecture (this technology was at its infancy at that time, and it is difficult to know exaclty how much added efficiency to xenos was due to this new architecture) but also to the edram bandiwidth allowing less bottleneck applications of MSAA and transparencies compared to ps3 RSX, and if the RSX hasent been helped by the CELL, the edram bandwidth of xenos would have allowed xbox360 games to boost more polygons per second.

    ps4 could use intelligently a part of the silicon budget for an innovative efficient edram solution. (if your question is : why than AMD do not use edram for PC products if it adds to efficiency, the answer would be : different constraints and bottlenecks, you dont need edram if you have 200+GB/s of 3 GB GDDR5 bandwidth, also consoles are closed programming boxes, but for PC you just cant throw a 10mb of edram on a PC GPU and call it a day, developers should do the tiling themselves for every game if the framebuffer dosent fit...so for obvious compatibility issues, there are some solutions that could work for consoles but cant be commercialized for PCs)



    for other ideas than intelligent edram use for consoles, regarding the question of how to use more efficiently the silicon budget, these are some quotes from the interesting article of Charlie Demerjian :

    http://semiaccurate.com/2012/03/02/sony-playstation-4-will-be-an-x86-cpu-with-an-amd-gpu/

    "One of the things that we had heard about the PS4 chip, or should we say PS4 SoC, is that Sony is really keen on the idea of TSVs. The other bit is that they are going to have lots of extras, we have heard about sensors, but that could just be part of the other odd bit, FPGAs. Yeah, there is a lot of weird talk coming out of Sony engineers, and programmable logic, aka an FPGA, is just one of the things. Additional media processing blocks, DSPs, and similar blocks are all part of the concept.

    To do all of this, and I do realize how odd it sounds, you would need some monumental memory bandwidth for it not so starve. Sony is known for screwy memory architectures, if you have ever seen PS3 programming documents, you know how much pain a dev has to go through to get bits in the right place at the right time. The PS4 looks to be better in that regard, but far from perfect. Expect stacked memory, and lots of it, all over the aforementioned interposer. I know this sounds crazy, but we have been hearing it for a year plus now, and, well discounted most of it until Paul Demsey got the same story from a Sony CTO.

    In the end, it looks like Sony is going to go for the take no prisoners option on the PS4. If you don’t push fab limits that hard, but do push advanced packaging to the limit, you could very well end up with a monster that is simply not manufacturable as a single die. It won’t be cheap, but it will undoubtedly punt a single chip, or a single chip with stacked DRAM, in to the weeds."
     
  7. Ruskie

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,291
    Likes Received:
    1
    Charlie is full of crap and eDRAM is not the reason why Xenos has upper hand at vertex processing, its unified shaders actually.
     
  8. lefizz

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think its more that there just is no reason to go too over the top this time. Last time they did that and what did getting into a pissing contest with MS bring them? Nothing,a huge loss at the start and finally probably break even on the whole ,bloody long, cycle.

    I cant see either console being more than 20% faster than each other but i may be wrong. But at that level as i said before working with devs and getting services right first time are far more important than the last few percent of performance. If there was a huge gap it would be different but if you are trying to enter the same generation at the same time as a competitor using the same third party to create your silicon how far apart can they be?

    Only if MS is willing to loose money for a couple of years on their hardware could they be in a situation to have a big gap between them and Sony. But even at 2x power which seems almost impossible I am not sure it would make that much difference to the games developed for it.

    Though marketing wise it could be a bit of a disaster

    I think the biggest source of performance advantage could well be bandwidth. We live at a time when memory is incredibly cheap but decent bandwidth is bloody expensive. The company which works out the best way to create a high bandwidth shrinkable solution which can be made cheaper over the life of the unit will win the perfomance crown.
     
    #16548 lefizz, Dec 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2012
  9. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,607
    Likes Received:
    11,036
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    And so can MS. What is the reasoning behind believing MS could release a console on a budget and Sony could usurp it in performance on the same budget by being cleverer, when AMD is reportedly designing them both?

    Charlie's tantamount to a swearword here. I'm kinda scared how some are getting their info from him and Jeff Rigby and others with proven track records of being full of the brown, smelly stuff. Personally I'll only take understanding from known/reputable sources passed through the knowledgeable folk here. I've been here 8 years and seen the scrutiny on every bit of hardware released, and that consensus has always been bang on the money.
     
  10. ergem

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree, getting services right first time are far more important.

    I just hope that Sony or Microsoft target a platform that can render what Agni's Philosophy has shown us. I hope they felt obligated after Square Enix has shown the gamers what to expect. If not, there will be a lot of disappointments.
     
  11. DoctorFouad

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    wow what a tolerance and elaborate arguments :roll:

    and what about Masaaki Tsuruta, CTO of Sony Computer Entertainment ? would you also consider his opinion as irrelevant ?
    http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony-masaaki-tsuruta-interview/

    some quotes directlly from his mouth :

    "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."

    "We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”



    fine but the idea is that the edram bandwidth eliminated many bottlenecks for the xbox360 GPU which allowed it to achieve better results in many aspects.
     
    #16551 DoctorFouad, Dec 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2012
  12. DoctorFouad

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would ask you the same question regarding microsoft, and I can also use your words : "and so can sony". :roll: of course I agree that each company can produce better hardware than the other, but thats my own whole point defended in the last pages, a lot of posters in this topic seem to believe that SONY CANT compete with microsoft hardware wise, because they are BROKE. and I tried to argue with many arguments that thats not necessarly the case (efficiency of silicon budget, importance of ps4 project for sony's strategy, Microsoft not necessarily shooting for a very powerful hardware this time around,...etc).

    I dont know this guy and his reputation here, sorry to bring it into the discussion. But I didnt take his ideas as facts about the ps4 project, but just as hypothetical ideas that sony could have been using right now to create their new hardware, and as such it could be worth discussing...:wink:
     
  13. Helmore

    Regular

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2010
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wat do we consider similar in performance? Within say 20-30% of each other?
     
  14. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,607
    Likes Received:
    11,036
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Do you see an obvious difference on screen? If only side-by-side comparisons show the difference (more tearing, less grass, more dropped frames, on one version than other), then they are similar. If one is clearly superior in content, then not.
     
  15. Osamar

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    40,00ºN - 00,00ºE
    Given two consoles more or less equal in performance (CPU+GPU) and bandwith.
    If one console, have one ot two more Gb of usable ram, it could be a really great advantage it used by developpers?
     
  16. ERP

    ERP Moderator
    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,669
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Redmond, WA
    Except the OS locked up if you used more than 192 of them :p
    That was on of my favorite exchanges with MS tech support
    me : "My game locks up if I use too many voices",
    tech support : "Yes it's a bug"
    me : "well how many voices can I use?"
    tech support : "It depends there isn't a specific limit"
    me : "hmm so how can I budget my audio"
    tech support : "don't know"
    me : "........"
     
  17. kagemaru

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,358
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Ohio
    If the former is true, than having more memory can never be a bad thing IMO.

    Do you mean that no one used it properly or no one used it at all? If the tools are given, I find it hard to believe developers wouldn't use components that would give them extra performance in the end. Not saying you're wrong but it's surprising to read this.

    I knew the 360 outsold the ps3 in 2011, but I thought the PS3 was outselling the 360 this year. Not that it matters anyways.

    There's a reason why some site don't use vgchartz or find them reliable.

    lol wow.
     
  18. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    12,406
    Likes Received:
    8,609
    Location:
    Cleveland
  19. Rangers

    Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,322
    Likes Received:
    1,120
    Like PS3 was more powerful than 360 despite a years difference? And now nodes are slower, the potential for meaningful time-based difference is significantly less in 2012 than it was in 2005 I'd argue. In 2005 a year meant a lot more than it does today imo, and Sony still didn't capitalize.

    The time frame guarantees nothing. Given current rumors I wouldn't be shocked if PS4 slips six months and still ends up weaker and undercooked.
     
  20. arijoytunir

    Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    12
    recent posts by aegies ( polygon.com staff )

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45554694&postcount=3945

    so just like this gen - xenos was more future proof than RSX .

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45555102&postcount=3950

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45557439&postcount=4005

    next xbox no show on ces 2013.

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45557776&postcount=4008

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45560561&postcount=4035

    so AMD it is !!
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...