Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[Shifty Geezer]

Bandwidth per core isn't an issue beyond bandwidth per execution units. 16 single FMADD units on sixteen cores at 2 GHz aren't going to need the bandwidth of 4 128bit vector units at 3 GHz on two cores. Any architecture needs to balance memory performance with processing potential. Choice of many small cores or fewer large cores should be made solely on what the code devs will be using will be a better fit for. If future algorithms are easily parallelisable and you can get more peek performance with more cores, than go for it. If the algorithms will be better off with stronger cores then use fewer of them. Whatever processor architecture you go with, couple it to a suitable RAM solution so it's not gimped.

 

[tunafish]

Bandwidth per core isn't an issue beyond bandwidth per execution units. 16 single FMADD units on sixteen cores at 2 GHz aren't going to need the bandwidth of 4 128bit vector units at 3 GHz on two cores.

Huh? Jaguar has 128bit vector units, and separate mul and add units per core. 16 Jaguar cores @2GHz have 3.5x the theoretical peak FP power that Xenon had. And utilization will be much, much better.

 

[Megadrive1988]

What are we looking at as far as external bus widths for next-gen consoles?


Are we still going to be seeing 128-bit?

 

[MarkoIt]

Slap together 4 Jaguar chip (4 core each), duck-taped it with some L3 cache in the middle.. how much big would be such a chip? Not much i think.

 

[MarkoIt]

Would you have the memory bandwidth to service 16 cores though? ...Probably not, I'd be tempted to say. Not by a long shot.

So what would be the point, regardless of how tiny said cores are?

128bit@DDR4, double the shared L2 per 4 cores group and a big shared L3 in the middle (32 mb?). 40 mb of on-die cache should help to reduce bandwidth usage.

 

[tunafish]

Slap together 4 Jaguar chip (4 core each), duck-taped it with some L3 cache in the middle.. how much big would be such a chip? Not much i think.

Not going to have any L3, the L2 is designed to be a LLC. Making changes in the cache subsystem is in general a lot harder than it sounds like -- you cannot just slap things on there. Jaguar + L3 would take so much effort to design and verify that it would probably not even be called Jaguar at that point.

 

[sebbbi]

(moved to correct thread)

 

[babybumb]

Lower than 600GFLOPS?

There is really not much evidence of bigger ambitions to go for any kind of performance or maximum features.. why would you settle on a SM4/R700 level tech and design your box certain way in that case.

I believe Nintendos target was to just go over Xenos enough to do two 360 level outputs at 720p and 480p rendered at the same time. That is exactly what we are seeing. If you dont render full 3D scene on the tablet there is room for small improments on the main screen

 

[XpiderMX]

Can this mean someting about next gen power consumption?

 

[AlNom]

It means they'll have some method to throttle clocks and/or power gate.

 

[DieH@rd]

AMD will most likely use modular design, with sections that can be shut down when not needed. These power requirements could be met, except maybe 0.5W for standby. That's really low.

 

[Mobius1aic]

Can this mean someting about next gen power consumption?

Uh oh, here comes the EPA telling us what we can and can't do. Stupid government assholes.

 

[ERP]

Europe already has the 1/2 watt standby requirement.
I'd like to understand what the definition of Active Streaming Media is, and whether it applies to gameplay.

 

[Rangers]

It means they'll have some method to throttle clocks and/or power gate.

it means the price of your console just went up. and/or the capabilities got less for the same price, cause those requirements wont be free.

Just wait until they add the missing "while playing games" limit.

I'd like to understand what the definition of Active Streaming Media is, and whether it applies to gameplay.

Obviously not, one assumes. DVD/streaming media playback no doubt.

Bitter angriness aside, I certainly hope we can stave off any requirements for power consumption while playing games. I dont see why PC GPU's can be allowed to be absolute monsters (dual GPU high end) and consoles shouldn't be able to do what they want (especially since they will stay in 200-300 watt max window anyway without govt intervention).

But just as sure, I am sure there are no gamers deciding these regulations over at the EPA, just a lot of treehuggers. And they do whatever they want like Kings, there is no system of checks and balances on the EPA. They will put any proposals out for "public comment" and then implement them unilaterally with no meaningful rollbacks as they always do.

Something like a 100 watt games limit might pose new challenges on engineering, the key would no longer be cost but how to fit under the limit. It would certainly hurt Sony the most though imo, since without the most powerful hardware I'm not sure what chance they'd have ( I think 360 vs PS3 showed they'll struggle with equal hardware).

 

[AlNom]

it means the price of your console just went up. and/or the capabilities got less for the same price, cause those requirements wont be free.

How so? There's no upper limit for gaming there. (Please elaborate)

Just wait until they add the missing "while playing games" limit

Well, until they do come out and explicitly decree this, your entire strawman's argument and commentary aren't particularly relevant to the thread. (Nor is the commentary on treehuggers or regulations appropriate in any way)

except maybe 0.5W for standby. That's really low.

I guess that means no wake-on-lan. (would have been neat to be able to queue/buy stuff from computer web browser and signal the console to start downloading).

Anyways, isn't 0.5W basically just covering say... an LED, system clock, and the circuit that detects whether you pushed the power button?

 

[XpiderMX]

1) Standby Mode: The mode where the console is plugged into a power source but is not
providing any primary or secondary function and has no saved hardware state. The console
has no active network link although may be capable of charging devices in this mode. Not all
consoles may have this mode.

2) Active Mode: The mode in which the Game Console is interactively manipulated by the user in response to prior or concurrent user input.

Additional functions available in Active Mode are:

a) Navigation Menu Function:

(1) Navigation Menu (aka Home Menu, System Menu, Cross Media Bar, or Dashboard):
The Home Menu includes the screen(s) initially displayed for user navigation to selected game features for the selected game.
​

b) Game Functions:

(1) Game Play: A game is actively being played and the console is receiving user input.
(2) Game Play Pause: A game otherwise being played is paused after receiving user input.
​

c) Streaming Media Functions:

(1) Video Stream Play: The Game Console is playing a video stream through a network connection.
(2) Video Stream Pause: The video player is paused during active streaming of the video.
​

d) System Maintenance and Download: Applies to times when the console is actively engaged in system maintenance or download functionality after waking or in response to user input. System maintenance and download are defined below:

(1) System Maintenance: Game Console operating system patching, game updates, or other updates delivered and installed.
(2) Download: Files actively downloaded onto a local storage media for concurrent or future use.

​

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partne...Console_Draft_3_Performance_Req.pdf?41c8-ff8c

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partne...A_Game_Consoles_Draft_3_Webinar.pdf?41c8-ff8c

 

[ERP]

Then it's a good thing Energy star compliance is voluntary.

 

[Blazkowicz]

On a console it's much easier to have power management that works 100% of the time, the hardware is custom so you might wall off a lot of the GPU and plain old clock reduction, voltage reduction is old tech.
You'll never know your hardware runs at 800MHz or something with the GPU at 200MHz or something while showing you stupid menu items or displaying video decoded by a DSP. And the recommandation doesn't say anything about browsing the web or a store.

If 50 million people are fapping to their digital streaming and use 50W less, then that's 2.5 GW saved. Who cares about your hard earned rights to piss us off.

 

[Acert93]

I think it has sense that both Sony and MS went to a tiny/little wattage CPU with Jaguar cores after AMD showed them what a 130-160 watts Oblan chip will be capable of with 3 to 4 Tflops of processing power in a 250-275 m2 die.

You mean the Oland? While I think a lot of us would love to dream "Oban" was really "Oland" in those old rumors I think the realistic silver lining is that if those 8xxx series leaks are real (big if) then it indicates a refined design on a more mature process can result in a serious reduction in TDP. If AMD can a launch a 3TFLOPs chip with a large pool of memory hittng 192GB/s of bandwidth on a discreet GPU board at 130W max TDP I think that boads well for what you could fit into a console unit at 200-250W.

We can hope... just have some prozak handy and don't go near any windows when the real announcementsare made MS/Sony bought into hope and change but after bleeding red they could only buy one, so they ditched hope, bought change, and went as low as you can go

 

[Ruskie]

So...how do you increase die size, transistor count and clock rates that gives you whopping 75% more FLOPS than Pitcairn, while lowering TDP by 9%? Smells like bs tbh.

If that was the case, than I guess MS and Sony would know about it when they chose hardware partners some time ago and I would be seriously baffled if they wouldn't go for those. Seriously...what could go wrong? Yields should be fine, its same core as 7 series. There is plenty room for downclock while still keeping better performance than what their Southern Island predecessors could give them.

BTW, with Acert mentioning Oban, Oban is supposed to be 32nm. It started manufacturing in late 2011 according to Charlie and back then he still mentioned IBM and PPC. Then all of the sudden, they are still manufacturing them, only now they gone to AMD (as some others suggested). Seriously, thats impossible and pretty stupid, really wondering how he got to conclusion that they can change CPUs "on fly", especially with one being x86 and another one PPC . He probably got conflicting rumors from all kinds of "sources". They probably had offers on table and decided to lock down last year (assuming its similar pattern like 360 development). No PPC+GPU SOC one month, than next one they change to AMD APU.