Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

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In his latest tweet he says its not PowerPC CPU, but Intel one. Huh, he sounds like someone who got the chance to see the kit, not actually spending time with it. Or he is trolling hard and not giving answers :smile:

Yeah I caught that. Actually I dont know that he's ever backed off the Intel CPU thing.

I guess it's possible. In the Xbox Takahashi books he wrote that Gates personally made a last ditch attempt to keep Intel in the 360 (which obviously failed)

Here is another of his buddies on twitter apparently with a Durango kit

https://twitter.com/superMTW
 
Yeah I caught that. Actually I dont know that he's ever backed off the Intel CPU thing.

I guess it's possible. In the Xbox Takahashi books he wrote that Gates personally made a last ditch attempt to keep Intel in the 360 (which obviously failed)

Here is another of his buddies on twitter apparently with a Durango kit

https://twitter.com/superMTW
Well, that wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities, but it would probably make more sense if AMD was to deliver both, since they have experience in APUs as of lately.

Another thing, isn't it rather suspicions that those two can talk about dev kits for next gen consoles like that without getting a "call" from MS layers?
 
Who knows. Looking through this 2nd guy's twitter, he has neogaf affiliations and apparently possesses some sort of Halo 4 beta as well.

Microsoft probably cant do crap about anything. Now if it was Apple. police in riot gear would be kicking in these guys doors LOL.
 
Well, maybe. Its probably bad time being Microsoft, even with all the money they make. Someone should ask him a thing or two about dev kit, he seems to be responding to people all the time. I would, but I don't have twitter account.
 
When the next-next gen consoles launch, can we start a new thread? I think just on principle alone, seven years will have been too much for this one to have gone on. :)
 
When the next-next gen consoles launch, can we start a new thread? I think just on principle alone, seven years will have been too much for this one to have gone on. :)

I see what you are doing there--trying to kill my epic thread! :p

We currently have rumor threads for each platform.

But I agree, once REAL information is confirmed each platform should, and will, get a new thread. At that time this thread can be closed and I will start the Predict: Next-Next-Next Generation Console Tech thread ;) (Which will be really cloudy).
 
Ok, back to my wild Atom speculation.

Of interest is the 32nm Intel Atom N2800, 2 in-order cores at 1.86GHz with HTT and 1MB L2 is 6.5W. This is with a 640MHz GPU; the 2600 model at 1.6GHz and 400MHz GPU is 3.5W. So we have to move this to 22nm with Tri-Gate. I didn't quickly find but Pineview, a dual core on 45nm with a GPU, was 87mm^2.

So what we know is that 2 current Atom cores on 22nm are going to be small and depending on the memory architecture (both local as well as system memory) could be under 5W for 2 cores. Lets spec out the top end.

Core i7 Ivy Bridge ULV are 22nm/Tri-Gate with 2 cores at 2GHz with 2x256MB L2 and 4MB L3, HTT and AVX and an HD Graphics 4000 has a TDP 17W.

Core i7 Ivy Bridge Quad Cores have a number of variants. Low power models are 35W (2.1GHz), most are 45W (up to 2.7GHz), and the high end are 55W (up to 2.9GHz). All are 4x256MB L2 and 6MB L3 except the 2.7/2.9 models with 8MB. Again these are 22nm Trigate with AVX, HTT, and 4000 HD Graphics. These run at a die size of 160mm^2.

To summarize: Core i7's designed with lower TDP are clocking in at 9W a core (including their "share" of of the GPU) and that is on 22nm with AVX and HTT. Atoms on 32nm w/o AVX and in-order are clocking about 3W a core with GPU -- or down to under 2W for the 1.6GHz model on 32nm.

It would be fair to say that an Atom that adds AVX and OOOe (but not as robust as the i-series), drops the GPU, and moves to 22nm Trigate will fall somewhere in between--let's say 4-5W depending on how much cache and how much/wide the memory controller is.

These cores will obviously be small, but it is not unreasonable to predict an 8 core next gen OOOe Atom with HyperThreading Technology, AVX on 22nm with Tri-gate that sucks 30-40W (much like their ULV i7s) and with a die area under 100mm^2.

That would be a fairly solid CPU, with some nice up side with AVX, and importantly leave a lot of resources for a 130-150W GPU (Pitcairn, 212mm^2)--all the while having the CPU resources to justify such and a design that could use 4-8GB of memory.

Wow, we are in sad times if ATOM processors are in our pipe dreams :p

EDIT: All this to say that a relatively robust and low power design, be it from Intel or from AMD or IBM is possible. There is no reason that due to TDP & Cost that a next gen console MUST be a wimpy low-end 4 core design. That is a design choice, not a design necessity.
 
you bring again the OOOe, this would thus be not an Atom :)
for some reason Intel is selling the third generation of Atom, and it looks like the exact same CPU core each time, only they now sell a 2.13GHz version.
 
Well the Atom cores are mostly unchanged since a while now though Intel has a replacement in the pipe, I don't remember the code name by the way.
Intel also touted Haswell to be amazing in many ways which include power efficiency (still not aiming at a few watts). I'm close to believe that they will deliver, they've been flawless lately.
As far as I wish them to be involved in the console realm I really see no intensive for them to give up on their high margin, there are more and more in class on their own. And I don't bite in the ARM threat, their late Atom platform are now in the same ballpark as the competition.

OT even their GPU are getting "there" and I always wonder if they were to hit a wall wrt to GPU be it hardware (software is more likely though) if they could simply buy Nvidia.

Ot number 2, When I think about it, if Intel has some extra production capacity and are willing to lower their margins they may as well launch their own platform. That's sound out of this world but sadly I've the same feeling about them lowering their margins.
 
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you bring again the OOOe, this would thus be not an Atom :)
for some reason Intel is selling the third generation of Atom, and it looks like the exact same CPU core each time, only they now sell a 2.13GHz version.

Intel had noted the plan for 5 years of in-order with Atom and Anand has speculated the 22nm Silvermont would be OoOE. To compare Bobcat in 2010 was out of order so it isn't an impossible development.

@ liolio: Atom chips aren't very high margin, I have seen bulk pricing under $50 and they fit into retail products selling under $300 for profit from retailer, manufacturer, and Intel.
 
@ liolio: Atom chips aren't very high margin, I have seen bulk pricing under $50 and they fit into retail products selling under $300 for profit from retailer, manufacturer, and Intel.
Well how do you know, Atom are tiny and it's likely that they are high yields parts.
The production of Atom has always lag the desktop wrt to the lithography used. So I would not be surprised if Intel does a pretty comfortable margins on them, definitely not the margins they have in high end, but pretty high for such a low-end/commodity piece of hardware.
 
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Core i7 Ivy Bridge ULV are 22nm/Tri-Gate with 2 cores at 2GHz with 2x256MB L2 and 4MB L3, HTT and AVX and an HD Graphics 4000 has a TDP 17W.

Core i7's designed with lower TDP are clocking in at 9W a core

Note that these are simply the least-consuming bin, and thus not massproducable in the quantities needed for consoles. (Actually, I've heard numbers as low as 2M ULV chips per year, so it's not even anywhere *near* console volumes.) For chips that are actually available in volume, Ivy Bridge offers ~15W per core.

(including their "share" of of the GPU)
The GPU and CPU sort of share the TDP -- when one is running at full tilt, the other cannot be.

It would be fair to say that an Atom that adds ... OOOe

This irks me a bit every time it comes up. Modern approachs to OOOe are not features than can be plugged on to existing designs. I doubt any of Intel, AMD or IBM would design an OOOe chip that didn't use a PRF, and when you design a chip that uses a PRF, the PRF is literally the first thing that gets added to an empty design, everything else would be designed in around it. Any OOOe Atom will share very little, if any design with the existing Atom -- it would, in fact, be a completely new chip. Given how bad rep Atom has with consumers, when Intel finally replaces it, I doubt the new one would even be called Atom.
 
This irks me a bit every time it comes up. Modern approachs to OOOe are not features than can be plugged on to existing designs. I doubt any of Intel, AMD or IBM would design an OOOe chip that didn't use a PRF, and when you design a chip that uses a PRF, the PRF is literally the first thing that gets added to an empty design, everything else would be designed in around it. Any OOOe Atom will share very little, if any design with the existing Atom -- it would, in fact, be a completely new chip. Given how bad rep Atom has with consumers, when Intel finally replaces it, I doubt the new one would even be called Atom.

Google Silvermont and Out of Order and read Anand's info about what Intel had told him about Atom in regards to how long they intended the product to remain in-order. Not sure why my post irks you. I never said it was an insignificant addition. And even you would have to admit the product naming is often associated with slotting--would you agree there is a long history of a product name that went through many iterations and significant architectural changes? From Intel the name "PENTIUM" jumps right out as no one would argue that the Pentium, Pentium Pro, Pentium 3, Pentium 4 (NetBurst), and their mobile Pentium (Yonah-and-after) are the same architecturally with just a smidgen of small changes.

If you see Atom as a product placement name then it makes complete sense for the microarchitecture to continue to evolve, significantly even, without upsetting people about the lack of name change. That is not to say they won't conjure up a new name (Atom Pro) or even drop Atom into the mobile class and whatever OOOe chip they introduce for the lower end/tablet get a new brand.

But I am not sure why that of all things irked you as it seems obvious, not just to me but to the links I posted to, that Intel in response to competition in this segement, will introduce OOOe into this market slot to improve performance. Whether it be the "new" Atom line or "Atom's successor" I don't see why this drew any ire as it seems obvious that after nearly 5 years without huge changes that the Atom-market-slot needs a face lift.

Thanks for the info on the ULV chips, the desktop parts are mostly in the 45-65W (11-16W per core+GPU) range with the very high end at 77W. Although looking through the various sites you may be right that they cannot both run at full load all the time at the same time it does appear the CPU and GPU do run at the same time and the CPUs, when GPU use is lower can throttle up (turbo) so it does seem the rated per-core at 15W is too high as they would only be nearing that while in Turbo.
 
Well, I feel like it's more of a semantic issue than anything, I expect the next/new atom to be brand new architecture. I expect Intel engineers have been working for years now with really high constrains.
Atom + OoO isn't much of a problem to me, Atom is a brand, the different evolutions of the architecture have different name. So it's not like to say the next Atom is a medfield + OoO.

For the next Atom I expect Intel to go against the trend in the mobile realm with at least 2 cores and now pretty often 4.
I could see them either use a big/little approach, but with two cores and never working at the same time. They could have one core akin to nowadays Atom and a big more powerful one, still sounds like a lot of work looking forward (like having 3 arch , atom, in between, Haswell, etc.).
Either I could see them go with only one big core with caches with different power characteristic like the late Atom.
I could see the next Atom be wider (3 issue) with quiet some more execution units, OoO, I would hope compliant with AVX2 (but half the width so executing operations on 8 wide vectors at half speed). May Intel could jump to 4 hardware threads to maximize the big core utilization when not power gated/ in low power state and also to look on par from a software pov and marketing pov.

EDIT overall I could the next Atom closer to say a Pentium 3 than to nowadays Atom.
Some people may expect multi cores A15 to walk over such a design, they are also wider than A9/A8 or Atom ( still.narrower.than a 3 issue X86), OoO, etc. but that doesn't say the whole picture.
I expect Intel to walk over them when it comes to how efficient is the OoO execution engine, prefetchers, branch predictors, etc/front end I would also expect the SIMD units to be significantly more powerful. That's still not close to the whole picture.
I expect Intel caches and overall memory sub system to walk offer what the competition provides in every way, more cache, lower latencies, higher bandwidth, higher associativity, etc.
Then there is the mem controller.
Overall I'm not concerned abot Intel future in slighest and on any market. I think they have the best management (and chief engineers/ engineering teams) in semi conductors industry. They may not have Steve Job so it's not as flashy but they've been of late anything but flawless.
 
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