Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

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Their situation they had with the xbox in 2004 was quite different from the situation they now have with the 360 in 2011.

Agreed!

But again, there is nothing preventing MS from supporting both consoles until xb720 can find its way into casual/family gamer budget pricing.



Regardless, my point with the above is that the process node isn't going to be the roadblock to prevent a 2012 launch on 28nm.
 
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Indeed.

My point (which you originally quoted in my response to AlStrong) was that the process node is not a limiting factor. Every Xbox up to now has been launched on the "latest and greatest process node".

Both the PS2 and PS3 launched onto fairly mature nodes. The Wii launched onto a mature node and so will the WiiU (at least for its CPU).

There's no clear pattern of needing to be in there right at the start of a new node.

I don't see why xb720 would be any different.

If the timing for the new platform doesn't suit then the Xbox 720 will be different, I'm pretty sure of it. As I see things:

- You time the platform for the market.

- The market doesn't give a damn about the node.

- Shareholders do care about profits.

As for the concept of waiting for the node to mature:
Code:
node	trans	size	t/s	clock	watts
65	180	85	2.12	625	20
65	390	153	2.55	600	35
55	666	192	3.47	668	75
55	181	67	2.7	600	25
55	378	132	2.86	725	65
55	242	73	3.32	600	25
55	514	146	3.52	600	48
55	956	256	3.73	625	110
55	959	282	3.4	700	130
40	826	137	6.03	750	80
40	2154	334	6.45	725	151
40	1040	170	6.12	700	86
40	292	59	4.95	650	19
40	627	104	6.03	650	39
40	1700	255	6.67	775	127
40	2640	389	6.79	800	200
40	370	67	5.52	625	18
40	716	118	6.07	650	44
40	1040	170	6.12	700	86

Looking at the transisters / die size, I'm not seeing a marked improvement in Radeon HD6000 series over HD5000 series, both using 40nm, which started production in q2 2009. The newer models from early this year (a year and a half after 40nm AMD gpus started shipping) have roughly the same transistor density on the same node.

I don't understand why your focus is on transistor density rather than chip size, frequency scaling, performance per watt and yield which all have either a very strong tendency or certainty of increasing significantly over time.

If the transistor density stays the same but the die grows by %30 and the frequency grows by 25% and perf/watt stays flat while yields increase by 90% then you're probably going to be rubbing your hands together, dancing round the campfire naked drinking moonshine.*

*Never done this

~5.91 trans/ square mm 5000 series
~6.23 trans/ square mm 6000 series

Both of which are a marked improvement over their 55nm GPUs which average 3.29 trans/square mm (A full node shrink).

Almost double actually ...

Take a look at AMDs fastest 40nm lineup and see how things went in the first 12 months. Now take a look at the 480 and then the 580.

Where do you think MS and Sony would want to be on this scale? Now consider that neither is in a desperate Xbox 1 style situation...

Not hard to imagine what another full node shrink from 40nm to 28nm would bring again ...

Now imagine what a 40nm to 28nm shrink plus 15 months of node maturity with bigger chips, faster clocks and better yields would bring. Even if you ended up in a PS2 vs Xbox situation shortly after, so long as you have the right platform you'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

Good luck trying to replicate the wii gimmick magic and basing design and sales projections off that.

Seems MS have had some pretty good luck recently.

(On a 90nm system!) ;)
 
Both the PS2 and PS3 launched onto fairly mature nodes. The Wii launched onto a mature node and so will the WiiU (at least for its CPU).

There's no clear pattern of needing to be in there right at the start of a new node.

As I said, the 28nm process isn't a roadblock.

If MS chooses to launch in 2012, they can.


If the timing for the new platform doesn't suit then the Xbox 720 will be different, I'm pretty sure of it. As I see things:

- You time the platform for the market.

- The market doesn't give a damn about the node.

- Shareholders do care about profits.

All well and good, but the planning process takes a while...

Need to get the design down (part of this is which node are we designing for?)
Need to get the Industrial design done
Need to get developers on board for the target design
Need to get suppliers in order
Need to get marketing team on it


It all starts up front with targeting a certain performance spec which is intimately tied to a node (or half node).

Granted, one can do all of the above, realize the timing isn't right (as the market or node process isn't ready for a next-gen console) and wait. Or they can wait even longer and design for a smaller node (pushing back the launch significantly so they'd better be damn sure not to open an opportunity for the competition).

But one can't say, "hey the market is looking for a new console now so let's get one together asap!".

As far as market receptivity to a high-end console at the moment, I'd say we are pretty much there.

(see anticipation for BF3 high-end pc demos)

I don't understand why your focus is on transistor density rather than chip size, frequency scaling, performance per watt and yield which all have either a very strong tendency or certainty of increasing significantly over time.

Density equals cost after yields issues are sorted out.

If the transistor density stays the same but the die grows by %30 and the frequency grows by 25% and perf/watt stays flat while yields increase by 90% then you're probably going to be rubbing your hands together, dancing round the campfire naked drinking moonshine.*

Better yields = cheaper ... yep.

But at some point, analysis needs to be done to determine yield costs saved by waiting vs profits lost by waiting and launching alongside or after your biggest competitor.

It's not just yields in a vacuum.

1 year of sales and mindshare = X $ lost from low yields

The yield factor is still a big unknown as TSMC hasn't shipped complex (gpu) 28nm product to analyze yet.

Take a look at AMDs fastest 40nm lineup and see how things went in the first 12 months. Now take a look at the 480 and then the 580.

ok ...

Now imagine what a 40nm to 28nm shrink plus 15 months of node maturity with bigger chips, faster clocks and better yields would bring. Even if you ended up in a PS2 vs Xbox situation shortly after, so long as you have the right platform you'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

Initial shrink showed near doubling density, unknown yields, and ~75% increase in transistor/watt

After a year on the market, 40nm showed a ~25% increase in transistor/watt


Waiting for that extra 25% seems a bit ... wasteful.

That's "a dollar waiting on a dime" as the saying goes.

Seems MS have had some pretty good luck recently.

(On a 90nm system!) ;)

That technology is already here.

It's neither here nor there in the discussion at hand of "when will they launch?" and "what will be in the box?".


My point was that to try and replicate the ability to launch a new console on the back of a new gimmick such as what Nintendo did with Wii without regard for cutting edge technology (or technology at all) leads to a risky proposition which paid of for Nintendo, but it was the first time in history and as you mentioned, MS has already traveled that road to the dead end and put up the detour sign for everyone else.

Now unless there is some other magical technology/gimmick that will get people to buy consoles in droves (an ipad knockoff won't do it, Nintendo!), MS and Sony will have to stick to the proven path to sustained sales and profits ... Top-end Hardware.
 
Short-term, yes.

Long-term, being first will be a leg-up.

I don't buy into the being first advantage. More mature hardware and development tools (and more time with them before launch) can easily overcome any first to market advantage (if it exists at all), while massively reducing early costs.
 
I don't buy into the being first advantage. More mature hardware and development tools (and more time with them before launch) can easily overcome any first to market advantage (if it exists at all), while massively reducing early costs.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree here.

XB360 would have a fraction of the marketshare it has today if not for the early launch.

And with the reduced marketshare would come less incentive to support it internally (MS) and externally (Devs).

Granted, being first wasn't the only reason MS has done well this cycle, but it is a key component of their strategy that paid off.


As for the rest, more mature hardware and dev tools, MS already has those in place as long as they build on xb360 hardware.
 
I don't think they would have done all that much worse launching in 2006 with a simultaneous worldwide launch with limited shortages, while being $100 cheaper than ps3, without the RROD and with much better launch lineup. It's even possible that it would have allowed them to improve the internals a bit, a few more MHz on clocks or something. That early launch cost them $billions and it was only because of market conditions (xbox millstone needed to be abandoned) they were required to do it as they were already losing money on the xbox.
 
If it's just the WiiU, why not... list it as "WiiU"?

Wouldn't be unlike how they described showing Next Gen Madden back in 2005 instead of specifying Xbox 360.

It's PR. "Next Gen" means a whole lot more than WiiU as a name does.
 
Gotta love PR, eh? But then again, I'm sure there's a lot they can do with at least twice the RAM and updated GPU tech. It's not like the WiiU isn't going to be better than 360/PS3. Even though it's not a super leap as we might expect from the other two, that doesn't mean they can't still make a better looking game.
 
... I'm sure there's a lot they can do with at least twice the RAM and updated GPU tech. It's not like the WiiU isn't going to be better than 360/PS3. Even though it's not a super leap as we might expect from the other two, that doesn't mean they can't still make a better looking game.

While this may be true, I don't see EA and the like investing heavily to modify their existing ps3/xb360 games to fully take advantage of Wiiu as Nintendo hasn't been pushing for the hardcore market in a LONG time and the reception of the machine has been rather lukewarm ... I'd expect mostly the same treatment PC ports get. Better filtering, better frame rate, maybe higher res, but not enough to have people stand up and take notice.

No serious investment from big devs until the machine justifies such an investment.
 
It's not particularly hard to use higher resolution assets or turn up the rendering quality.

Who's to say they'll do a bang up job? We saw how the 360 version of Madden 2006 ended up. Are you saying EA won't do something similar?

Dood, just give up the grasping of straws for 2012 next gen Xbox. I don't say this lightly. (Not to mention this whole discussion is off-topic)
 
MS's continued push into the consumer content realm with features like IPTV and further integration with cable tv services.

That doesn't seem like much of an announcement for CES though ...

It has to be something hardware related.

Either xb720 or Kinect 2.0/PC
 
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