Porsche calls Nissan cheaters!

[Phil]

And why would that matter? If you want to go really fast and be comfortable buy a airplane. Thats why I dont like the veyron. Sure it can do 400kmph (if you can find a place to drive that fast, which the average veyron owner wont so the topspeed already is useless), with its 1800+kg I doubt it will be that much good on a track and if you want real comfort buy a RR or something like that. Its just a kinda comfortable supercar, with a high topspeed you cant use and its not even that exclusive. Funny enough they even have trouble selling all the cars, thats why there are like a dozen of ''special editions'' already. Now I dont recall that being a problem for the real supercars like the Enzo.

And all the other 300+ kmph cars are driven at those speeds? Not even on most race tracks are speeds above 250 a possibility, let alone on the road. Speed remains a prestige feature to many and that doesn't stop many cars to labled as supercars.

What's also ironic about your post, is the reference to the Veyron being a bad track car. By that messure, most supercars are less than optimal track cars and play underdog to track specialized cars costing not even a 10th. The Veyron of course is no exception, but it's not hardly as bad on the track as you make it to be, despite it never being even intended to be used on one.

As for the weight: Considering it's holding a 16 cylinder engine that weighs more than most track focused cars, is confortable, is 4WD, packs above average safety requirements, the ~1900kg isn't all that bad. As a comparison, the new Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 packs over 1650kg. It may not be as light as an Enzo out of carbon-fibre, but cars weighing less than 1300kg is going to become a thing of the past as safety requirements become even more demanding in the future.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Ofcourse track cars are better for a track, I said that a few times before already in this topic.

I dont think cars lighter than 1300kg are going to be uncommon. The ccx already weights alot less than that. Ferrari wants their new cars to be as light as possible, rumors are that the new F430 should be around 1250kg and also their new hypercar should be lighter than the Enzo.

I dont think safety is the problem. Just look at F1 cars. Without the ballast most weight only 450kg but if you gotta pick a car to have a high speed accident in you'd pick a F1 car. With all the carbon monoqocue's, also on the supercars, those are safe enough. They can already take the high speed crashes. Problem is that even if the part you are in stays intact during a crash the force your body gets to handel can still kill you. No safety equipment can help against that. A couple of months ago this kid in this oil state crashed his SLR. The part he was in was still intact but he died because his body just couldnt take all the bouncing around.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Second fastest. And all but comfortable I'd assume (never drove it though).

Surely Lambo is a supercar, or how do you call a car which can run 350 kmh and is in the top ten fastest cars on this planet? IMO anything running over 300 is a supercar. Rare or not is kinda not relevant in my eyes, just the power and the feeling.

The problem here is that then you'd have to say that Merc AMG and BMW M series are supercars (they all do 300+ if you know how to get rid of the electonic speed limiter).

And imo, neither merc AMG or M-series are supercars, they are "sportscars" imo.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

And why would that matter? If you want to go really fast and be comfortable buy a airplane. Thats why I dont like the veyron. Sure it can do 400kmph (if you can find a place to drive that fast, which the average veyron owner wont so the topspeed already is useless), with its 1800+kg I doubt it will be that much good on a track and if you want real comfort buy a RR or something like that. Its just a kinda comfortable supercar, with a high topspeed you cant use and its not even that exclusive. Funny enough they even have trouble selling all the cars, thats why there are like a dozen of ''special editions'' already. Now I dont recall that being a problem for the real supercars like the Enzo.

1. A veyron should do nice on some tracks, it has marvelous acceleration, marvelous top speed, and it has a good skidpad rating (1.4g or so). The only problem is fuel consumption, the car can barely take 2 laps around nurburgring without a pitstop.


2. Your whole argument around how you cannot use the top speed is ridiculous. Its not like you can achieve the top speed of an enzo normally either.

The Bugatti Veyron is atleast comfortable, so you could use it as a daily driver, ferrari's (atleast the 355 and 360) are very uncomfortable cars if you plan to drive for a while.

3. Comparing how easy it is to sell an Enzo compared to a Veyron is also ridiculous. The enzo has a "Ferrari" label on it, one of the strongest trademarks in the world, it has tons of heritage aswell. The Veyron costs twice the money and has a "bugatti" label on it, which in recent times only has been synonymous with bancruptcies, not racing.

4. How can the Veyron not be that exclusive? Its production numbers is what? 350? Thats the same as the Enzo +1.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I dont think safety is the problem. Just look at F1 cars. Without the ballast most weight only 450kg but if you gotta pick a car to have a high speed accident in you'd pick a F1 car.

Do you realize how much money a F1 car costs to make?

Unless your going to charge $4 million or so per car your not going to have Formel 1 tech for safety in a normal car.

 

[The549]

Do you realize how much money a F1 car costs to make?

Unless your going to charge $4 million or so per car your not going to have Formel 1 tech for safety in a normal car.

That's why I called out coli as an armchair racer...having a discussion about cars is pretty ridiculous when you pull out the 'yeah but an F1 car is so much better than ur dum supra'. You have a person who isn't speaking within his own reality.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

1. A veyron should do nice on some tracks, it has marvelous acceleration, marvelous top speed, and it has a good skidpad rating (1.4g or so). The only problem is fuel consumption, the car can barely take 2 laps around nurburgring without a pitstop.

A top speed that on a track is useless and besides that on most places on the planet it wont even do 400kmph (as xxx pointed out in a other thread). Acceleration? ofcourse, but there are cars that are very close or faster than that and those do manage to go around corners much faster.

2. Your whole argument around how you cannot use the top speed is ridiculous. Its not like you can achieve the top speed of an enzo normally either.

Than again Ferrari never advertised the car as being the fastest car on earth (in a straight line) either.

The Bugatti Veyron is atleast comfortable, so you could use it as a daily driver, ferrari's (atleast the 355 and 360) are very uncomfortable cars if you plan to drive for a while.

Oh come on. Nobody uses these cars for a daily drive because they are way to impractical even if the ride is ''nice''. No matter how luxurious the veyron may be its not made to do 40k a year.

4. How can the Veyron not be that exclusive? Its production numbers is what? 350? Thats the same as the Enzo +1.

+ the targa.

Do you realize how much money a F1 car costs to make?

Unless your going to charge $4 million or so per car your not going to have Formel 1 tech for safety in a normal car.

I know my english isnt the best in the world but I do think I made it pretty clear in my last post that all modern supercars already have passenger compartments that can handel the high speed crashes. Maybe next time you should read what I say a bit better.

Besides that its stupid even naming the F1 pricetag as most of that comes from the mechanical parts and probably not the monocoque itself which is a big lump of carbon but probably far less than the Enzo uses for the whole car.

 

[Sxotty]

Meh imo over the top styling is not a requirement, BHP, rareness and pricetag are the factors. It doesnt have to look crazy to be a supercar, just have to be expensive ,rare and FAAAAST.

How expensive exactly does it need to be? I am just curious as I find the whole thing ridiculously pointless when it is discussing something being expensive just to be expensive.

 

[Phil]

I dont think cars lighter than 1300kg are going to be uncommon. The ccx already weights alot less than that. Ferrari wants their new cars to be as light as possible, rumors are that the new F430 should be around 1250kg and also their new hypercar should be lighter than the Enzo.

Actually, the CCX weighs 1456kg. Either Wikipedia or where ever you get your information from is dry-weight or it's just wrong, but the car has been tested and reviewed by magazines at 1456kg.

I dont think safety is the problem. Just look at F1 cars. Without the ballast most weight only 450kg but if you gotta pick a car to have a high speed accident in you'd pick a F1 car. With all the carbon monoqocue's, also on the supercars, those are safe enough. They can already take the high speed crashes. Problem is that even if the part you are in stays intact during a crash the force your body gets to handel can still kill you. No safety equipment can help against that. A couple of months ago this kid in this oil state crashed his SLR. The part he was in was still intact but he died because his body just couldnt take all the bouncing around.

When I was refering to safety, I wasn't just refering to building cars stronger and more resistant to crashes. I was also talking about many of todays safety features and requirement such as ABS, more advanced crash structures and others that have been responsible for a steady rise in weight the last 10 years.

I'm also not sure an F1 is safer than a road car on the road. Perhaps on a race track where you might expect a highspeed crash to happen. Road cars have to be built around a few more safety paramenters. Road cars also hold more passengers and feature a little more comfort than what one gets in a F1 car. Also, many of todays safety paramters relevant to road cars isn't only there to protect the driver, it's also there to protect pedestrians, thus why it isn't legal to drive an F1 cars on public roads. Which is why we weren't talking about F1 cars, we were talking about road cars.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

How expensive exactly does it need to be? I am just curious as I find the whole thing ridiculously pointless when it is discussing something being expensive just to be expensive.

I dont think price matters that much. Its easy to put a high price tag on it, some rich guy is bound to buy it sooner or later but that still doesnt really say anything about the car other than someone was insane/rich enough to not mind paying a fortune for it.

Actually, the CCX weighs 1456kg. Either Wikipedia or where ever you get your information from is dry-weight or it's just wrong, but the car has been tested and reviewed by magazines at 1456kg.

Do you happen to have a source for that? because google will only find 2601lbs which according to google is 1180kg.

When I was refering to safety, I wasn't just refering to building cars stronger and more resistant to crashes. I was also talking about many of todays safety features and requirement such as ABS, more advanced crash structures and others that have been responsible for a steady rise in weight the last 10 years.

Which are used already. Besides that I think safety standerds on supercars already are far higher than on your road car. Its not just mere luck that people get away with some of these high speed crashes.

I'm also not sure an F1 is safer than a road car on the road. Perhaps on a race track where you might expect a highspeed crash to happen. Road cars have to be built around a few more safety paramenters. Road cars also hold more passengers and feature a little more comfort than what one gets in a F1 car. Also, many of todays safety paramters relevant to road cars isn't only there to protect the driver, it's also there to protect pedestrians, thus why it isn't legal to drive an F1 cars on public roads. Which is why we weren't talking about F1 cars, we were talking about road cars.

Why is reading so hard? I was talking about the monocoque about a f1 in comparison to a supercar that also has that, only a bigger version. But that saving a life in a crash at some point becomes more than just keeping the place where the people are in one piece. The body also needs to be able to take the energie from a high speed crash and that isnt something you can totally solve with more safety features.

 

[Phil]

Do you happen to have a source for that? because google will only find 2601lbs which according to google is 1180kg.

Source

I trust this source somewhat because they had their hands on an actual CCX and they weigh the cars themselves.

Which are used already. Besides that I think safety standerds on supercars already are far higher than on your road car. Its not just mere luck that people get away with some of these high speed crashes.

Err, what? I said, cars weighing less than 1300kg (as per your reference that the 1900kg in the Veyron is too heavy) is going to become less likely in the future, due to increasing safety regulations that are enforced on car manufacturers.

Have you followed any of this in the last 15 years? Cars have been becoming heavier, not only due to increased luxury items, but also due to security regulations that are being enforced. These are only going to rise in the future. As of 2009, more changes are going to follow that are around to protect pedestrians being hit by cars. I don't necessarely agree with the direction this is taking, but I see weights in cars generally increasing, not decreasing.

That's why cars such as the McLaren F1 that were real light weight aren't going to be the norm in the future. I also doubt you'll ever see a Ferrari as light as the F40 was, unless we're talking about a track-focused vehicle.

Why is reading so hard? I was talking about the monocoque about a f1 in comparison to a supercar that also has that, only a bigger version. But that saving a life in a crash at some point becomes more than just keeping the place where the people are in one piece. The body also needs to be able to take the energie from a high speed crash and that isnt something you can totally solve with more safety features.

Maybe you lost track of your own argument. Let me remind you: You started off that the Veyron is too heavy, I replied, it isn't all that much heavier than many other cars you would probably consider supercar worthy and that the Veyron packs above average safety features and luxury you don't get with other cars. I'm also saying that the cars that are more to your liking (cars that weigh below 1300kg) is, sadly, going to become rarer in the future, as safety regulations further become more strict.

I agree this is a damn shame - as I think light - is right, but unfortunately, the trends are going in the opposite direction. And I'm also not all that keen on the Veyron, I'd take a McLaren F1 over it any day of the week, but I'd be hard put not to call it a supercar. On a technical level, the car is hugely impressive.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Phil, im not going to bother anymore. Everything you say I have anwserd atleast 3 times already. Please take the effort to atleast read my post before hitting the reply button.

The extra weight for one, has little to do with safety and much more with the added luxery of aircon, nose lifting suspension, nice seats etc.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Nissan plans to take on Porsche, the most classic of all sportscar manufacturers, with its newest coupe. Equipped with a larger 335-hp 3.7-liter V6 engine and having gone on a serious diet, possibly shedding as much as 200 lbs, the new 370Z will definitely have the cojones to keep up with its foes, including the Cayman, and its shorter wheelbase and wider track should conspire to make it quite the handler as well. We'll get our first official look at the new son-of-Godzilla at the LA Auto Show

 

[Bambers]

I'm also not sure an F1 is safer than a road car on the road. Perhaps on a race track where you might expect a highspeed crash to happen.

Your average chealsea tractor (eg x5) would just run straight over an f1 car, even at lower speeds - wouldn't be pretty.

 

[Davros]

the 370z even looks like a porsche (or is it the other way round)
The new 928

 

[Sonic]

The new 370Z is looking to be pretty decent, but I think the rumors of a 370ZX is even better. Same car, just with a beefier transmission and two turbos propped into it should be quite nice. I ave no idea if the rumors are legit at all, hopefully they are.

 

[_xxx_]

The problem here is that then you'd have to say that Merc AMG and BMW M series are supercars (they all do 300+ if you know how to get rid of the electonic speed limiter).

And imo, neither merc AMG or M-series are supercars, they are "sportscars" imo.

Well they can be used to bring your kids to school or get the groceries, so surely they're not true sportscars either

 

[RudeCurve]

And here is the GT-R sedan. I must say it looks quite nice and sporty, better looking than an M5 or Panarema.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/infiniti-gt-r-sedan.html

 

[DJ12]

Way to read the article there RudeCurve

It's that websites artist impression of what it "might" look like.

All they have done is merged some features of the Skyline G35 (or whatever it's called) and the GT-R

 

[RudeCurve]

Oops sorry, I thought it was official.