Porsche calls Nissan cheaters!

[tongue_of_colicab]

Yeah and if you put 4 skinny 13'' wheels on your 600bhp awd car its not going to have tracktion either. Your just looking for excuses. And its not even a good one because AWD use TC too.

But how about the Carrera GT? RWD and no TC? that can get the power down no problem.

Its just not true that awd is better by default. And its not like weight is the problem, the awd system in the murci or gallardo weights like 50kg so if it would really make such a big difference it would be in all the really fast supercars and they would just make some even lighter system and put up with that 30kg extra which shouldnt be a point if it would really make a difference.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

There is a difference between sporty and a supercar. You can be sporty with FWD (alfa is going back to RWD btw ) just as you can be a sporty person going to the gym and stuff. But that doesnt make you a athlete.

Being sporty in a FWD car is like competing in the special olymics- even if you win your still retarded.

And who cares about safety? Do you buy these cars because they are insanely fast and exiting or do you buy them because you want your kids to be safe during the school run? AWD, fine, but not on these types of cars. With new government policy's and green party bitching big engines are already on the line, please dont screw up what we have left putting AWD in all these cars. All the really brutal supercars dont have AWD, but RWD. Gumpert, ascari, pagani, zonda.

Again. Ive allready pointed out that RWD is more fun, althought i disagree with the saying that a true supercar has RWD. RWD has a lot of problems when power starts getting huge.

If the rest of your car is shitty designed it does yes. But how come you have the FFX, Gumpert and that new pagani zonda that all howsomewhere between 700 a 800bph with no problems putting that power down on the rear wheels? Thats because they are designed to do that.

Its obvious to me that you have never driven a car, atleast not a very powerful one.

FFX,Gumpert, Zonda, all of those also suffer from the same problems that all RWD cars with high power has. Traction. There is a reason for why the FFX has launch control, traction control etc etc etc.

If you try to accelerate without traction control on, in a fast car, you can see for yourself how RWD struggles, no matter if its Ferrari or a Merc.

you will just stand in the same place smoking your tires...

And the problem is that, the more power you have the more your going to struggle with this when you have RWD.

When i turned off ESP\traction in my old car, it could get bluesmoke from the tyres at near perfect conditions (dry) even at 140km\h.

There is nothing special about Ferrari's or whatever, that stops them from having traction problems with high powered cars, the laws physics stops RWD from being as effective as AWD in these conditions

And yes, traction control is bad, because basically it just de-revs your engine until your tires gets grip, so you get less power output. (Its good in the sense that you live, but bad in the sense that your getting suboptimal performance)

Note: a FFX probably has racing slicks on so i bet you while it has less problems with traction, it still certainly there.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Yes the FXX has problems with traction. I watched this one video of an FXX going around a track and it kept on wheel spinning and you could see the driver fighting with the steering wheel around the corners.

US

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

And yes, traction control is bad, because basically it just de-revs your engine until your tires gets grip, so you get less power output. (Its good in the sense that you live, but bad in the sense that your getting suboptimal performance)

Fine. You just said AWD doesnt solve anything either because Lambo's also come with TC and they are AWD.

Also, what if your awd car has like 900bph? Lets say 300bph will go to the front wheels than you still have 600bph on the rear wheels. Now please explain me why the backwheels on this car wont spin? The power on the backwheels is still, according to you, to big to handel.

 

[Sonic]

The reason they won't spin is because there is power going to all four wheels thus making the chances of not getting traction far less than it would be in a pure RWD car. Sure the rear wheels might be getting more power, but the front wheels are getting some and that helps give it traction. For instance, a Diablo with way more than factory horsepower, because it has two turbos in it, will get 1134 HP to the wheels. When going down the quarter mile track the wheels catch immediately and allows for a 9.1 second quarter mile time. It still sucks around corners though, because many AWD systems are very good at providing understeer.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Well, I've seen ''plenty'' of murci's do burnouts so its not like the awd solves the ''problem''. Ofcourse it helps a bit as you said and I understand that but still I wonder how much better it is than RWD given that hardly any supercar makers uses it. Even porsche didnt bother using it on the GT while they have AWD experiance and the GT doesnt even have TC. If RWD would have trouble with handeling its 600+bhp wouldnt it make sense to use AWD given they arnt using TC?

Im just a layman, but common sense tells me that if only a select few cars use AWD vs a whole lot (and faster, more powerfull cars) RWD cars than in my mind somewhere AWD must offer some big disadvantages over RWD if you are willing to take RWD with its ''bad'' tracktion over AWD with its ''good'' tracktion.

 

[The549]

I've not driven a Diablo, nor even drifted a subaru, but AWD cars are known to 'plow' as they are pushed beyond their limit. In all the racing sims I've played this is very noticeable, and it seems to me that other than breaking free into a 4 wheel powerslide (which would take a mass amount of power unless you let up on power quickly and let the car lurch forward first) plowing is what often happens.
Tongue I really don't buy your arguments.

 

[Sonic]

I wonder if those burnouts were done while the brakes are also applied? I can launch from about 4k and catch instantly. It really isn't a problem.

AWD is much more expensive to do than RWD also, and it is heavier, and a greater loss of power to the wheels.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Dont know.

I dont think price is important. Actually lambo is among the cheaper supercars these days. Weight shouldnt be that much of a problem either, I read that the awd system that lambo uses these days is only 50kg. Given that its likely something off the shelves from audi that could probably be alot less.

But that is kinda the point im trying to make. Money isnt a issue with these type of cars so why dont more cars use it if it would really be such a advantage over RWD?

 

[Moloch]

I've not driven a Diablo, nor even drifted a subaru, but AWD cars are known to 'plow' as they are pushed beyond their limit. In all the racing sims I've played this is very noticeable, and it seems to me that other than breaking free into a 4 wheel powerslide (which would take a mass amount of power unless you let up on power quickly and let the car lurch forward first) plowing is what often happens.
Tongue I really don't buy your arguments.

Cars with "Dumb" AWD systems plow because they're they're FWD untill the front wheels slip and then transfer up to 50% of power to the rear wheels, they still have the basic handling characteristics of a FWD car.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Subaru is little faster in a straight line, but from what I heard they are pretty much neck and neck on a track... I also think that this electronic black magic thing has been blown way out of proportion.

They're really not neck-and-neck from what I've seen. Granted, we are talking about a world where a second or two is considered a vast difference for two vehicles that are basically in the same league. It's not exactly like comparing a Corolla to a Corvette. Depends, I suppose, on your standard of a "track". The more technical the track, the bigger the difference.

I suppose referring to it as "black magic" is about the only thing that gives the impression of overinflated importance. To be more accurate, it's more like a product of science that people who haven't really worked on it firsthand can't hope to explain very explicitly.

You think about the real importance of something like ATTESA or S-AWC, it's all about maintaining proper conditions for a clean line. Getting the right balance of oversteer and understeer so that you're right on the edge of the tire grip limits, "vectoring" your torque, allowing appropriate weight shifts to occur, etc., and be able to do that effectively whether accelerating, decelerating, or in steady-state... All of that counts when it comes to how it affects the way you can drive. If it means that you, as a driver, can brake later before a curve, get on the power earlier on the exit, then the "black magic" has indeed served to shave off a few ticks.

Cars with "Dumb" AWD systems plow because they're they're FWD untill the front wheels slip and then transfer up to 50% of power to the rear wheels, they still have the basic handling characteristics of a FWD car.

Well, more or less, that's relegated to the more mainstream vehicles that have AWD systems. And the only reason they have such systems is because most of these vehicles are FWD to begin with, or at least share a chassis with some vehicle which was never meant to be anything other than FWD. RWD in mainstream vehicles died a long time ago, and is only slowly in the process of a micro-resurrection due to the overall increase in engine power across the spectrum of vehicles out there. AWD never really existed in that segment, and it only now appears because people think it's so valuable (which it usually is, but only if done properly, which it often isn't).

This is not likely to be an applicable complaint on something like a current Gallardo or Murcielago as they are light years away from mainstream and will always be out of reach for anyone who has a net worth less than the GNP of most nations.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

They're really not neck-and-neck from what I've seen. Granted, we are talking about a world where a second or two is considered a vast difference for two vehicles that are basically in the same league.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/05/evo-x-vs-sti-tsukuba-lap-times/

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Top-Gear-EVO-X-vs-WRX-STi_169396.htm

I did find pages where the Evo is faster, like the Car and Driver 2008 lightning lap.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...s_classic_cars/the_lightning_lap_2008_feature

What is odd here is that the Chevrolet Coball SS 260hp FWD beats EVO X and STI... My caliber manages to keep up on the straigths aswell hehe.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Fine. You just said AWD doesnt solve anything either because Lambo's also come with TC and they are AWD.

No i didn't. If you had actually ever driven car, you would understand that traction control only helps in cases where you dont have traction. With AWD you will generally have more\better traction all the time, that doesn't mean that it doesn't need traction control.

Dont try to imply that i say something other than what i wrote, aspecially not when you dont have the understanding to make such generalizations. Its very annoying.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Money isnt a issue with these type of cars so why dont more cars use it if it would really be such a advantage over RWD?

Money is a issue, every car has to be competitively priced compared to the relevant competition. While the costumers are less price sensitive, price still matters.

Aspecially with lamborghini which doesn't have anything going for them except for extravagant design and traditionally being very good at killing yourself with, compared to the heritage of some other "supercars" (i wouldn't call a gallardo a supercar but thats another discussion).

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

No i didn't. If you had actually ever driven car, you would understand that traction control only helps in cases where you dont have traction. With AWD you will generally have more\better traction all the time, that doesn't mean that it doesn't need traction control.

Dont try to imply that i say something other than what i wrote, aspecially not when you dont have the understanding to make such generalizations. Its very annoying.

I may be a idiot but the fact is that with the exeption of Lambo and Bugatti not a single super/high end sports car maker uses AWD. Looking at ring times, all the top cars are RWD cars with the option of turning TC completely off or not having it at all. now please explain to be my this is the case if AWD has the advantage over RWD? Assuming these companies know alot better what they are doing than you and me I think using RWD must be better than using AWD.

 

[_xxx_]

AWD is a bit better, but not better enough compared to the development and parts costs involved.

Money surely is a big issue, always and with any car. For such a relatively small series we're talking about many millions, just the development of the gearbox and all the drivetrain parts for a AWD compared to RWD is a plus of over 100 million. Now divide that by several thousands of cars and there you have the net price difference. Then add taxes and so on, it would nearly double the price of the car.

That's only viable if you have a platform you'll use in at least several models or sell it as a supplier, so that's why there are so few companies doing that.

Lambo use Audi modules, that's such an example.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Dont the AWD systems scale ''easy''? Lets take Ferrari for example, if a awd sytem would cost them 100m and they wanted it on the 360 (which sold 17k) that would be a little under 6000 extra. And that is for just one model. They could have used a scaled version on the F430 which is a evo of the 360 and they could even use it again on the succesor of the F430 as that is still going to be based on the 360/430. I suppose Ferrari could easily charge that money extra. They manage to sell out the Calafornia for 2 years @ 30k more than a F430 and the Cali was supposed to be the ''budget'' Ferrari. A couple of grand more wont really matter that much I think.

But Ferrari might be alone at that because they sell a fairly large amount of cars.

But in general, if you say make a AWD system for your hypercar would that be easy and relative cheap to scale back to the lesser powerfull cars? Ofcourse that would probably still not cover the costs of small companies like Pagani.

 

[Davros]

Aspecially with lamborghini which doesn't have anything going for them except for extravagant design and traditionally being very good at killing yourself with, compared to the heritage of some other "supercars" (

eh? Lambo invented the supercar

 

[DJ12]

One day they might make one that lives up to the billing too.

they didn't "invent" anything, they were first to use the MR configuration in a road car, to suggest they invented the supercar because they copied someone elses idea from a race car is not quite right where I'm sitting.

 

[Davros]

ok then produced the first