Playstation 5 [PS5] [Release November 12 2020]

jayco said:
And now we have to wait 3 more months for games...

One thing Sony has done wrong is aiming this event at casual/average pea... gamers. I get that after GDC got cancelled they needed to release this info but I would have change the format given the target audience had changed. I can't say I like Jim Ryan leading things here.
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I'm starting to wonder if his decisions are why a bunch of PlayStation executives left recently.

I wonder if they'll get rehired when it starts to become clear that, as pertains to GPU and bandwidth, Microsoft made the better choice?
 
Silent_Buddha said:

​
  • If you have code that pushes the CPU and GPU equally hard, neither the CPU nor GPU will hit the boost clocks during that time.
    • Most of the time this shouldn't happen however, so the variable frequency shouldn't hurt it much.
  • If Sony allows the use of SMT, the GPU may be negatively impacted.
    • The purpose of SMT is to allow fuller use of the CPU by allowing more threads to run on a CPU core to take advantage of when the core would be idle.
    • Basically by increasing occupancy on a CPU core, the CPU core will be idle less often, hence the CPU core will use more of the power budget at any given time.
      • This means that the CPU will be in contention with the GPU for the power budget far more with SMT than without.
    • IMO, because of the variable frequency of the CPU and GPU, I don't think Sony will expose SMT to developers.
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SMT or hyperthreading as most people might know it, draws power at a well documented rate. If you get 30% additional performance, you're going to draw 30% power, in simple terms. No free lunch there.

If Sony allows SMT, they're still working the same power envelope TDP. How they get to max TDP could create an imbalance with the CPU taking the power budget ahead of the GPU. Even without SMT, you can run into contention issues quickly.

What will likely happen is that devs will set clock speed targets and stick to them and not rely on boost. This is ideal as you want to deliver a consistent experience across the range and don't want variable based support issues.

While Cerny claims they're using the power as a limiter, it's not that simple. There's no hiding from heat. As the load builds up and heat builds up, you end up drawing more power and needing more voltage to maintain the same frequency. This never scales in your favor due to the relationship.

I have a feeling that guidance will be given to developers on what speeds to target OR will organically become common place through experience.
 
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Tkumpathenurpahl said:
That's not what was said. They said they've tested it with the 100 most played games and most will play just fine come the launch of the PS5.

We don't yet know what that will result in. Maybe 98 of those 100 played absolutely fine, and maybe that will translate to 98% of all PS4 games playing absolutely fine.

Or maybe it means 51 of those 100 PS4 games play just fine, and everything else in the library falls on its arse.

Life of the Black Tiger will probably not fare well in this transition.
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They didnt mention any enhancements either
 
Pressure said:
It should be quite obvious that a normal SSD controller is not capable of doing what the 12-channel custom SSD controller does in the PS5.
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It should also be obvious that SSDs don't scale very well normally. In the real world, a 2x faster SSD don't load 2x faster. NVME drive benchmarks for drives that are 4GB/s at the same speed as 500mb/s SATA drives for loading games. Until Sony demos something, who knows how well their solution actually works in practice.
 
Esrever said:
It should also be obvious that SSDs don't scale very well normally. In the real world, a 2x faster SSD don't load 2x faster. NVME drive benchmarks for drives that are 4GB/s at the same speed as 500mb/s SATA drives for loading games. Until Sony demos something, who knows how well their solution actually works in practice.
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That's when going through standard storage APIs (designed around rotational HDDs) using programs designed using practices developed around rotational HDDs. Things change if you don't need to worry about anything you have running on a rotational HDD and thus can discard anything related to them.

So, expect to see far greater performance than anything on PC. Even Star Citizen which is coded to take advantage of SSDs still has to go through the standard storage API and NVME controllers. It remains to be seen how close to the claimed speeds games can get and whether that is sustained or peak.

Regards,
SB
 
RobertR1 said:
SMT or hyperthreading as most people might know it, draws power at a well documented rate. If you get 30% additional performance, you're going to draw 30% power, in simple terms. No free lunch there.

If Sony allows SMT, they're still working the same power envelope TDP. How they get to max TDP could create an imbalance with the CPU taking the power budget ahead of the GPU. Even without SMT, you can run into contention issues quickly.

What will likely happen is that devs will set clock speed targets and stick to them and not rely on boost. This is ideal as you want to deliver a consistent experience across the range and don't want variable based support issues.

While Cerny claims they're using the power as a limiter, it's not that simple. There's no hiding from heat. As the load builds up and heat builds up, you're end up drawing power power and needing more voltage. This never scales in your favor due to the relationship.

I have a feeling that guidance will be given to developers on what speeds to target OR will organically become common place through experience.
Click to expand...

Nice explained.
 
Tkumpathenurpahl said:
I'm starting to wonder if his decisions are why a bunch of PlayStation executives left recently.

I wonder if they'll get rehired when it starts to become clear that, as pertains to GPU and bandwidth, Microsoft made the better choice?
Click to expand...

You know, whatever the decisions behind the hardware - ultimately if PS5 launches at a competitive price, which Cerny alluded to a couple of times, it is what it is.

The real problem I can see with my “business goggles” is that MS this time around simply seems more prepared.

With this presentation, Sony looked quite unprepared, which is quite an insane notion considering how long they’ve had to prepare the hardware firstly, and then a reveal.

It just doesn’t scream “Sony” like it would have, where everything was pretty much on point.

This semblance of unpreparedness at a corporate level is quite striking to someone like me who has been around the block a few times.
 
Silent_Buddha said:
So, expect to see far greater performance than anything on PC. Even Star Citizen which is coded to take advantage of SSDs still has to go through the standard storage API and NVME controllers. It remains to be seen how close to the claimed speeds games can get and whether that is sustained or peak.
Click to expand...

MS is working to improve things on pc too.
 
London-boy said:
You know, whatever the decisions behind the hardware - ultimately if PS5 launches at a competitive price, which Cerny alluded to a couple of times, it is what it is.

The real problem I can see with my “business goggles” is that MS this time around simply seems more prepared.

With this presentation, Sony looked quite unprepared, which is quite an insane notion considering how long they’ve had to prepare the hardware firstly, and then a reveal.

It just doesn’t scream “Sony” like it would have, where everything was pretty much on point.

This semblance of unpreparedness at a corporate level is quite striking to someone like me who has been around the block a few times.
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The places that sounded "unprepared" were backwards compatibility in terms of not having guaranteed compatibility yet for all titles, not having working solutions for storage expansion in that there are no approved nvme drives on the market, and not showing the actual box (which could just purely be the choice of unveiling the looks later rather than nto having it finalized). Overall, I don't really see them being in a state of unpreparedness. They just don't have all the answers yet, and there's lots of time.
 
PSman1700 said:
MS is working to improve things on pc too.
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Yes, DirectStorage will be coming to PC as well. It remains to be seen how much PC can benefit. There will be benefits, just those benefits may not be as extensive as console where you don't need to support as many use cases as a PC has to.

Regards,
SB
 
disco_ said:
One thing is clear, PS6 is gonna be a beast.
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6Ghz here we come :p

Silent_Buddha said:
Yes, DirectStorage will be coming to PC as well. It remains to be seen how much PC can benefit. There will be benefits, just those benefits may not be as extensive as console where you don't need to support as many use cases as a PC has to.

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

Depends on SSD market, SSD with decompression block isn't out of proportion. MS would benefit from it, as their games are W10 and XSX.
Btw, there is no 2 SKU for MS? They would sure have said so.
 
PSman1700 said:
If it would be, why complicating things with 2%. 2.23ghz is very high, even 2000mhz was already seen as 'aha'. Most likely clocks between those two.
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I wish Sony would of stuck with sustained clocks. AMD use of "boost" is a horrible misnomer and mostly for marketing puposes. Most people equate "boost" with a performance increase when non boosted performance has been maximized. AMD "boost" clocks don't work that way.

"Hey man that's a nice car, how many ponies in that thing?"

"Well its regular mode provides 250 horses but with boost mode it goes up 450 horses!"

"Wow. That's incredible so when you go pedal to the medal that thing will really wakes up!!!"

"No. No. No. Boost mode is on all the time until you go pedal to the medal then it backs down to regular mode."

"Wait..What!!!"
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I'm slowly working through this tread but got to take a break at page 14. I've now watched the Cerny thing and wow, he would sell me ice if I lived in an igloo!
I found the SSD talk really interesting, 4GB loaded in just half a second - that's a real game changer and something XSX cannot do, will be interesting to see exclusives take advantage of. The sound chip is also awesome...can't wait, PSVR sound is amazing.

DSoup said:
We saw XSX load State of Decay 2 in about seven seconds. Cerny mentioned PS5 will boot games in a second. I still find this mind-boggling and difficult to believe. I won't be fussed at ~10 second loading times on my XSX (which I am getting), but PS5 will be borderline magical if this I/O system delivers on Cerny's promise.
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It's more than just load times, the implications on game design (through not having limitations on the speed of loading assets) will be really interesting IMHO.

Esrever said:
Games are probably not optimized for SSD loading for now and the SXS demo is just to show improvement over the base HDD. Sony's quote is probably the best case scenario where the game doesn't even have to fully load to get playing and then most stuff is streamed in. Not something possible to demo right now. Will see more when people actually tests this but I have a feeling both will perform pretty similarly even with 2x the bandwidth quoted for the PS5 considering the 20x improvement from moving from HDD to SSD isn't remotely close to loading the game in a 20th the time.
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There's a clear advantage for the PS5, as above, is PS5 can stream 4GB in half a second then XSX can do less than half that - and that's not enough to remove design restrictions due to streaming . This should mean devs can concentrate on designing a game vision they have rather than a game vision around streaming limitations (is what I got from the presentation).

RobertR1 said:
I'll say it now. The difference in multi plats between the two consoles will be similar to what we see today with the PRO and the X1X. Feel free to call me out if wrong.
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I feel you're wrong, X to Pro has bigger (and more) advantages.

Arwin said:
That SSD speed combined with the compression innovations etc and work on all the related bottlenecks, it is so dry on paper but in practice I think it is a very, very big deal. 5.5GB/s and with all those system optimizations ... Wow. With the way this works, it’s basically a huge increase in system memory.

It will be interesting to see though how this will be bottlenecked by the actual limited space. On the one hand games can be smaller because they need less replication. On the other hand at these speeds games could be 10-100 times the size they are now in terms of assets, except that would mean you could only install one game at a time.

It also suggests that VR headsets can become cheaper for PS5. Will be interesting to see how it turns out. In the end the next gen of VR is what I am most excited about!

And will be interesting if we indeed get personalized audio profiles for spatial audio.

The lack of anything tangible or visible made this a tad boring nevertheless, but that SSD speed is very exciting.
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Indeed!
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Yes, DirectStorage will be coming to PC as well. It remains to be seen how much PC can benefit. There will be benefits, just those benefits may not be as extensive as console where you don't need to support as many use cases as a PC has to.

Regards,
SB
Click to expand...

Was DirectStorage to PC confirmed anywhere?
 
looks good overall. The BC capability is regretful.
But they'll get the 100 most played games, so I guess that is enough to ensure that specific populations (the ones that matter) can continue forward.
 
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