Playstation 5 [PS5] [Release November 12 2020]

[mpg1]

Still confused about the BC. Does it have full PS4 compatibility or not? The way Cerny was talking it sounds like there was a fair bit of work done for compatibility yet it sounds like an ongoing process to get games to work? Sort of like 360 compait on Xbox One...

 

[Kaotik]

Still confused about the BC. Does it have full PS4 compatibility or not? The way Cerny was talking it sounds like there was a fair bit of work done for compatibility yet it sounds like an ongoing process to get games to work? Sort of like 360 compait on Xbox One...

No, it doesn't have full BC with PS4/Pro, but they aim for it eventually.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Careful, your agenda is showing.

Mine is contrary to his and i am so dissapointed that this gen I surely will embrace Xbox instead. They went so cheap...the more i think about that variable clocks...what an unelegant thing, what an un-Sony thing. Changing blue collars is greatly showing.

Think about the mess:

-back compat defined many design things and doesnt even work 100%.
-variable clocks, first ever in a console. Worse CPU and worse GPU. Besides it will be hot for sure.
-3d audio with caveats about not working for everybody. Not clear if really there is real additional hardware or CUs from the GPU needed
-ray tracing poor
-bandwidth poor for 60 fps/4K. At least should have added a good custom upscaler, improving the id buffer solution...
-no VRS nor mess shader
-primitive shaders from two gens announced as something custom.

 

[lefantome]

Still confused about the BC. Does it have full PS4 compatibility or not? The way Cerny was talking it sounds like there was a fair bit of work done for compatibility yet it sounds like an ongoing process to get games to work? Sort of like 360 compait on Xbox One...

Backward compatibily was a HUGE let down.

I understand the need for the approach they have implemented on PS4 Pro: a quick way to allow backward compatibility with the og PS4 but with PS5 I was expecting a moder robust system like the hardware agnostic one Microsoft has since Xbox One.

The result is that PS4 games need to be tested and maybe they won't even feature better resolutions while Xbox SX games will get all the benefits for free.

In addition to this: why not PS1 and PS2 compatibility? c'mon! PS1 in particular has been emulated for more than 20 years.

 

[PSman1700]

But atleast we have full tested bc for the most important/popular games.

 

[disco_]

What is disappointing is that only 100 PS4 games will be playable at launch (with no guarantee that others game will be available, only promises).

That's not what was said. They said they've tested it with the 100 most played games and most will play just fine come the launch of the PS5.

We don't yet know what that will result in. Maybe 98 of those 100 played absolutely fine, and maybe that will translate to 98% of all PS4 games playing absolutely fine.

Or maybe it means 51 of those 100 PS4 games play just fine, and everything else in the library falls on its arse.

Life of the Black Tiger will probably not fare well in this transition.

Finally able to watch the presentation.
All ps4 games will be playable. It's the boosted feature, sort of like ps4 boost, that's being tested. I mean the 800mhz and 911mhz BC tests from github make this obvious, right? Starts at 28 minute mark.The wording is weird, I'll say that. He starts "playing ps4 and ps4 titles at boosted frequencies" I assume he means "ps4 and ps4 pro titles"? Ending that whole paragraph with "we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on ps5" makes it sound like it's not 100% BC but looking at the previous statement, it's the ps5 boost that's still not 100% working, as it was with ps4 and its boost.

Still confused about the BC. Does it have full PS4 compatibility or not? The way Cerny was talking it sounds like there was a fair bit of work done for compatibility yet it sounds like an ongoing process to get games to work? Sort of like 360 compait on Xbox One...

The compatibility is for running ps4 games at ps5 spec if I understand it correctly. BC modes run it in native ps4/pro with no issues.

 

[mpg1]

Finally able to watch the presentation.
All ps4 games will be playable. It's the boosted feature, sort of like ps4 boost, that's being tested. I mean the 800mhz and 911mhz BC tests from github make this obvious, right? Starts at 28 minute mark.The wording is weird, I'll say that. He starts "playing ps4 and ps4 titles at boosted frequencies" I assume he means "ps4 and ps4 pro titles"? Ending that whole paragraph with "we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on ps5" makes it sound like it's not 100% BC but looking at the previous statement, it's the ps5 boost that's still not 100% working, as it was with ps4 and its boost.

The compatibility is for running ps4 games at ps5 spec if I understand it correctly. BC modes run it in native ps4/pro with no issues.

Yeah see this is what I'm not clear about. Is the testing just for boost mode and all PS4 games will work out of the box on legacy modes?.... Or is the testing for all BC period?

 

[Xbat]

What is disappointing is that only 100 PS4 games will be playable at launch (with no guarantee that others game will be available, only promises).

Unless I heard wrong that was regards to boost mode.

 

[disco_]

Stream at 17:30

The hardware decompressor can do 5.5GB in, and 22GB out depending on compression ratio. Obviously it needs exactly 4:1 compression to achieve 22GB/s, and he only provided 8-9 as a typical figure for kraken compressed data. It was not a spec. The hardware spec is 5.5 to 22 depending on data compressibility.

As it's 2.4 vs 5.5 raw and 4.8 vs 8-9 compressed, is the 22gb max the same as the 6gb max ms gave? Or is that not apples to apples?

Yeah see this is what I'm not clear about. Is the testing just for boost mode and all PS4 games will work out of the box on legacy modes?.... Or is the testing for all BC period?

That's my guess. He states playing ps4/pro games at boosted frequencies created issues so I'd assume legacy modes at normal frequencies don't have these problems.

 

[Globalisateur]

Finally able to watch the presentation.
All ps4 games will be playable. It's the boosted feature, sort of like ps4 boost, that's being tested. I mean the 800mhz and 911mhz BC tests from github make this obvious, right? Starts at 28 minute mark.The wording is weird, I'll say that. He starts "playing ps4 and ps4 titles at boosted frequencies" I assume he means "ps4 and ps4 pro titles"? Ending that whole paragraph with "we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on ps5" makes it sound like it's not 100% BC but looking at the previous statement, it's the ps5 boost that's still not 100% working, as it was with ps4 and its boost.

The compatibility is for running ps4 games at ps5 spec if I understand it correctly. BC modes run it in native ps4/pro with no issues.

This is from PS Blog:

Lastly, we’re excited to confirm that the backwards compatibility features are working well. We recently took a look at the top 100 PS4 titles as ranked by play time, and we’re expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on PS5.

Seems very clear to me. No question of boost mode here.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

Finally able to watch the presentation.
All ps4 games will be playable. It's the boosted feature, sort of like ps4 boost, that's being tested. I mean the 800mhz and 911mhz BC tests from github make this obvious, right? Starts at 28 minute mark.The wording is weird, I'll say that. He starts "playing ps4 and ps4 titles at boosted frequencies" I assume he means "ps4 and ps4 pro titles"? Ending that whole paragraph with "we're expecting almost all of them to be playable at launch on ps5" makes it sound like it's not 100% BC but looking at the previous statement, it's the ps5 boost that's still not 100% working, as it was with ps4 and its boost.

The compatibility is for running ps4 games at ps5 spec if I understand it correctly. BC modes run it in native ps4/pro with no issues.

Hopefully that's the case. It'll be quite an embarrassment for them otherwise. It won't make much difference to me, as I'll be sharing a flat with a friend, and I'll have either the PS4 or PS5 in my bedroom and the other in the lounge.

The PS4 already has a PS2 emulator in its firmware. And Sony have been emulating the PS1 in software since the bloody PSP. The PS5 really should be emulating both of them.

Hopefully Microsoft will give them a bit of a kicking this time and force them to up their game.

 

[chris1515]

As it's 2.4 vs 5.5 raw and 4.8 vs 8-9 compressed, is the 22gb max the same as the 6gb max ms gave? Or is that not apples to apples?


That's my guess. He states playing ps4/pro games at boosted frequencies created issues so I'd assume legacy modes at normal frequencies don't have these problems.

Yes the 22GB/s Sony gave is the same than the 6GB/s MS gave.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

But atleast we have full tested bc for the most important/popular games.

Do you know what do i want bc for?. for nothing, as seen the two alternatives i will go for the system with better 4K capabilities and that wont allow me to play my PS4 games.

 

[szymku]

PS5 can saturate the memory twice as fast. It's kind of important. Also despite the similarities in architecture, both systems are build on diffrent principles. I am equally prepared for PS5 to have the same ballpark performance as competition as well as to be significantly slower because of memory bandwidth. It's too early to tell, it's also too early to spread doom and gloom. We don't know shit about details of PS5 apu design, it's thermal characteristic and overboost method.
One thing I am certain is that Cerny is competent designer and there shouldn't be aby major mistakes. PS5 is not a turd the kind of Sega Saturn or (power of the cloud)

 

[Cyan]

I dont think they initially rushed the PS5, they just started development earlier, with perhaps BC in mind (more of a hardware solution then MS does), and 'double Pro power', then Stadia came, and probably also cought wind of XSX specs somewhere down the line. From there, things like extreme clock speeds came into play for the GPU, to be able to claim 10TF (double digit). That it can't always reach that is another thing.



True. Also, that's on PC then, where thermal and power limits aren't as much of a problem.
The thing i could see as a problem for Sony, with such high clocks, there must be higher voltages behind them. Ideally, you'd keep voltages as low as possible to extend chip life, and keep components cool. No idea about the final design, but consoles usually aren't so big. Going to be intresting how sony has fixed that.

sure, with a sustained GPU speed at 2.23GHz they can melt the Earth's core or take all the energy of the sun.

 

[mpg1]

Reading the Resetera thread on BC it sounds like it isn't just boosted....

I feel like this is one area where Sony is behind a few years compared to Micrososft.

 

[goonergaz]

Ok, up to page 20 and will need to take a break until tomorrow. Personally I have a feeling we might see a water cooled PS5.

From DF article:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...s-and-tech-that-deliver-sonys-next-gen-vision

'In his presentation, Mark Cerny freely admits that CPU and GPU won't always be running at 3.5GHz and 2.23GHz respectively. "When that worst case game arrives, it will run at a lower clock speed. But not too much lower, to reduce power by 10 per cent it only takes a couple of percent reduction in frequency'

Where does that 10% land us, on a teraflop scale?

Another thing, with the PS5, will we get expension cards like the xsx will offer?

Learn to read. he said a couple & on the frequency.

Ye, could be anything. Between 9 and 10TF it is.

Math not your strong point either?

No boosts for stadia either, sustained 10.7

Didn't realise Stadia was RDNA2?

this is a 9 teraflops GPU. No GPU in the world can sustain 2.23GHz.

This is how it is going to run the GPU at that speed. A 2080Ti has a much lower frequency...

https://www.sil-tronix-st.com/webuploads/display/215/Tirage2_02_03.JPG

This is a brand new GPU which doesn't need to sustain 2.23, just hit it when required.

Because those expension cards looked very small and easy to connect. A bog standard NVME sounds more like a last minute solution, but perhaps cheaper?

Aha.... well then, XSX solution seems the more friendly then. Why the odd 825gb though? Almost 200GB (two games?) less to install. Yes the SSD is faster, but also less in size.

Why do you think it's last minute? Cerny explained that 825GB was a special number for the SSD - They knew people would want to and have always allowed users to upgrade to standard HDD/SSD since PS2. Games will not be 200GB next gen, certainly any that are will be minimal due to less repeated assets. Yes, MS solution is more user friendly but it has it's limitations and (I'm failry certain) will be more expensive.

I am watching the presentation now and there a re a few things that make me wonder if the PS5 indeed provides significant advantages with some decisions.

In the past RAM loaded information that is not visible or experienced by the player. This time around memory may have only doubled, but the SSD speeds means that what is loaded is exactly what's in front of the player, seeing and experiencing. The SSD can serve as both a super fast scratch disk but also as a way to optimize fully the use of RAM. This is where these custom controllers and chips are probably assisting this. The positive thing is that the developer need not worry about these chips. So assuming the ultra best case scenario where 16GB are fully used thanks to those SSD speeds just for the sake of the argument, that will be 16GB of information in front of the player, not data waiting to be accessed. Thats a lot more information at every frame that could have been accessed if we were still stack with slow drive speeds. So its like having more than 16GB of RAM in actual results compared to what we could have in the past.

Thats a super big deal.

Is the difference in speeds between Series X and PS5 enough to provide a tangible advantage? Based on Cerny's description it probably compensates for the lower bandwidth in memory

The other good thing is that he expects developers to gain familiarity with the hardware in less than a month. Thats below PS4 and PS1 levels. Which may probably eliminate concerns where the developer may have to fiddle with frequency speeds and such....hopefully...

The other thing that makes me wonder is that, he says its easier to fill 36 CUs in parallel with useful work than fill 48 CUs , so I wonder if this was a good choice along with higher clocks than going higher CU count.

It is interesting that their frequency approach maintains constant power and shifts power from CPU to GPU if it is partly unused through Smartshift. Is this something that happened before or something also in Series X?

I wonder how 3D audio between PS5 and Series X differs. They dedicated a lot of time for sound in the presentation so it is a big deal for them.

This.

If it would be, why complicating things with 2%. 2.23ghz is very high, even 2000mhz was already seen as 'aha'. Most likely clocks between those two.

I'd rather believe the horses mouth thanks.

 

[Esrever]

Reading the Resetera thread on BC it sounds like it isn't just boosted....

I feel like this is one area where Sony is behind a few years compared to Micrososft.

MS seems to have designed BC into the OS level since Xbox one and have better tech for emulating older consoles. Sony is still trying to do things in hardware. Things will progressively get harder for Sony to support BC if they don't adopt what MS has been doing.

 

[mpg1]

MS seems to have designed BC into the OS level since Xbox one and have better tech for emulating older consoles. Sony is still trying to do things in hardware. Things will progressively get harder for Sony to support BC if they don't adopt what MS has been doing.

From what I am reading PS5 is not doing the same thing PS4 Pro did (direct hardware mimicing)....and that's why it doesn't have full compatibility...

 

[goonergaz]

3.5Ghz max boost, versus 3.8Ghz without SMT, 3.6ghz with. 12.1TF sustained vs 10TF max boost. Memory bandwith is alot more on XSX too, which gives rather huge advantage as function explained. The extra GPU performance provides more RT perf too. In raw perf for GPU, X had 1.8TF more then pro. We could have a similar situation, maybe.

X has a bigger CPU advantage, bigger bandwidth advantage and 50% more RAM than pro. The gap X to Pro is much bigger than XSX to PS5.
Also, PS5 has substantially faster SSD and other advantages over XSX...does Pro have any advantages over X?

It's not that simple, let's wait and see. Also, PS5 will have next gen exclusives built to take full advantage of the hardware with no concern for last gen in design.