Playstation 5 [PS5] [Release November 12 2020]

[Nesh]

There are a lot of things that raise concern. In the presentation Cerny mentioned a few times that the developer should be aware how he uses the hardware. Then there is boost, variable frequency and temperatures. Then there are the clear disadvantages compared to X. And also no mention of the various other technical features that help efficiency on the X.
The PS5 sounds like a weaker console that is also less clear cut for the developer to reach maximum performance.

 

[Panino Manino]

BC really starting to cause problems, only about 100 titles at launch and if rumors are true....

Wait, about this, those 100 titles are on "PS4 Pro Boost Mode"? All others ran ok in "PS4 Vanilla Mode"?
The test was necessary because the games on Boost mode are expecting Pro frequencies instead of much higher PS5 frequencies?

 

[PSman1700]

Now we know why microsoft put emphasis in guaranteed clocks. Not a fan at all of boost clocks on a console. I suspect sustained clocks will be in the low 9.x tflop range. This is just a reversal of the hardware specs from last gen. Fortunately for Sony they have massive brand power and the best developers in the industry.

This is the truth, DF maybe touch on this? They should know more aswell.

2070s/2080 vs 2080ti

Boost clock is useless for anything that will need full horsepower. It's a 9tf console.

XSX is closer to a 2080 then a 2080Ti.

It's not useless, they now can claim 10TF on paper, but not sustained.

 

[RobertR1]

XSX is closer to a 2080 then a 2080Ti.

It's not useless, they now can claim 10TF on paper, but not sustained.

I was referring to the relative difference in power between the 2 consoles.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think I prefer the PS5 hardware because of the potentially much faster load times and the potentially better audio solution (microsoft didn't say much about theirs other than it did "3D" audio). I can't say I'm impressed with the storage expansion situation though. 850GB or whatever it is, is not enough. If they allow nvme expansion with off the shelf drives, I have no idea how they'll keep the same performance profile. They should have some automated system that manages moving things back and forth between between the internal drive and expansion based on frequency of access or something. When you go to load something off the expansion it takes the least accessed game off the internal and swaps.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The storage subsystem has been stagnating for the longest time, so naturally the emphasis for the next generation is there. Adding more RAM beyond some point is getting much more expensive and still could't compensate for the slow storage and large memory sizes tend to require reduced speeds, hitting mostly the GPU scaling.

Yeah, I'm old so I can still remember the day my dad brought home an Atari 2600 where games were completely plug and play. The last plug and play console I had was a Gameboy. Even the DS and 3DS had load times which the game would hide with menus. The low point was loading from tapes on 8-bit consoles before turbo loaders but loading is still ridiculous on consoles and on a lot of PC games too.

I really do feel that focussing on bringing load times back under control will do wonders for both of the new consoles.

 

[BRiT]

So if numbers are right, PS5 best case scenario for dynamic RT performance is 321 Billion IPS (intersection tests per second).
The SeriesX number is 380 Billion IPS.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If they allow nvme expansion with off the shelf drives, I have no idea how they'll keep the same performance profile.

Cerny stated it'll only be drives that are fast enough. None exist yet. Expect Sony to list those that are usable, up until such a time that all fast NVMe drives are.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Cerny stated it'll only be drives that are fast enough. None exist yet. Expect Sony to list those that are usable, up until such a time that all fast NVMe drives are.

So expansion storage probably won't even be an option at launch. It's not really great, but it'll sort itself out in time.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I think I prefer the PS5 hardware because of the potentially much faster load times and the potentially better audio solution (microsoft didn't say much about theirs other than it did "3D" audio). I can't say I'm impressed with the storage expansion situation though. 850GB or whatever it is, is not enough. If they allow nvme expansion with off the shelf drives, I have no idea how they'll keep the same performance profile. They should have some automated system that manages moving things back and forth between between the internal drive and expansion based on frequency of access or something. When you go to load something off the expansion it takes the least accessed game off the internal and swaps.

I need to rewatch the bit about the drives again, I recall Cerny said playing PS4 games from HDD was fine but I really hope they let me hook up an 4-8Tb drive just for archiving games that I don't want to play right now, but might at the drop of a hat at some point.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yep. You'll have to wait until 5.5 GB/s NVMe drives of the right proportions to fit the drive bay are available. I doubt they'll be cheap! That does also suggest a user accessible drive bay on the machine somewhere.

 

[Mitchings]

I really don't think Sony should advertise dry tech presentations like this on their consumer-facing channels anymore. People expect too much and in the end it all just turns into a pissing contest over one number and vast misunderstandings/misrepresentations of various terminology.

Across REE and GAF in particular it's all 10.3 vs 12.1 with no real consideration for back-end, front-end saturation, fill-rate, I/O efficiency etc.

Even as a PlayStationer my only real disappointment is 448GB/s of bandwidth. I think 512GB/s would have been a big win as the relative bandwidth would have given an edge. An additional ~4GB of cheap/slow RAM would have been the icing too.

Also, if Sony want to allow and curate a list of third party drives that's great, but they should market proprietary ones too to keep it simple for the less technically versed. I know people are averse to pricey proprietary stuff, but standards maintain quality and keep it more straightforward for most average users. Gotta say 825GB is just an odd number to market, they should have bit the bullet and pushed to 1TB even if it marginally degrades the optimal channel layout.

I don't expect >10% performance differentials here, if anything I expect both to have different advantages/disadvantages depending on the characteristics of a given piece of software.

On another note, Cerny said "intersection engines" which I believe references terminology in AMD patents where the RT hardware sits in the vicinity of the Texture Unit; if I'm not mistaken this hasn't been alluded to elsewhere yet...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I need to rewatch the bit about the drives again, I recall Cerny said playing PS4 games from HDD was fine but I really hope they let me hook up an 4-8Tb drive just for archiving games that I don't want to play right now, but might at the drop of a hat at some point.

Pretty sure he didn't say, but I assume game archiving is in. That's perhaps an OS feature, so not talked about.

 

[Scott_Arm]

If so. I basically expect PS5 games to be XBSX games at 1800p upscaled instead of 2160p.

I think if you do the math it's probably higher than 1800p, assuming the memory bandwidth is not an issue.

 

[RobertR1]

I'll say it now. The difference in multi plats between the two consoles will be similar to what we see today with the PRO and the X1X. Feel free to call me out if wrong.

 

[anexanhume]

Also, no mention of ID buffer. Is that idea dead?

I guess RPM is gone too then /s.

They need ID buffer for BC.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

I really don't think Sony should advertise dry tech presentations like this on their consumer-facing channels anymore. People expect too much and in the end it all just turns into a pissing contest over one number and vast misunderstandings/misrepresentations of various terminology.

Across REE and GAF in particular it's all 10.3 vs 12.1 with no real consideration for back-end, front-end saturation, fill-rate, I/O efficiency etc.

Even as a PlayStationer my only real disappointment is 448GB/s of bandwidth. I think 512GB/s would have been a big win as the relative bandwidth would have given an edge. An additional ~4GB of cheap/slow RAM would have been the icing too.

Also, if Sony want to allow and curate a list of third party drives that's great, but they should market proprietary ones too to keep it simple for the less technically versed. I know people are averse to pricey proprietary stuff, but standards maintain quality and keep it more straightforward for most average users. Gotta say 825GB is just an odd number to market, they should have bit the bullet and pushed to 1TB even if it marginally degrades the optimal channel layout.

I don't expect >10% performance differentials here, if anything I expect both to have different advantages/disadvantages depending on the characteristics of a given piece of software.

On another note, Cerny said "intersection engines" which I believe references terminology in AMD patents where the RT hardware sits in the vicinity of the Texture Unit; if I'm not mistaken this hasn't been alluded to elsewhere yet...

Dont forget surely CPU at 3,5 Ghz is without SMT. So CPU advantage for MS could be big.
The variable thing is funny. When Naughty Dog designes a complex scene they will have to see the profile to see the clocks the system allows them, that in a complex scene paradoxically will be less. Better have gone with the Github exact thing for making life easier to developers.
And bandwidth, well, a multi at 4K 30fps in XSX will have to go 1800p or something for PS5. What a disaster. Jim Rian were you who wanted to go cheaper?.
What they got getting the bc is more people willl embrace XSX and game pass...

 

[RobertR1]

oh wait I just saw that the PS5 doesn't have SMT at all. Yeah, I fully stand by my earlier comment.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/2111246/

 

[function]

Depending on how they design the expansion bay, I think. They could put hestsink on the cradle or something.

A lot of faster SSDs already come with heatsinks to delay or prevent thermal throttling.

This could make compatibility with slot or caddy more problematic, perhaps.

 

[Rockster]

Using the quoted 10TFLOP number is actually a bit misleading since it's not possible under a full CPU/GPU load.