Oscar Pistorius - Disabled vs abled-bodied

[Frank]

There is no energy added and he has less muscles. That should level the playing field. If it isn't allowed, they shouldn't allow the other athletes to wear shoes, as those also help retain some of the energy.

One of my co-workers misses his left leg below the knee, and it definitely has a serious impact on him. You can spot in many conversations, that it is always on his and other peoples minds. People who have a disability fight hard to be accepted all their life.

That he talks about it a lot in the media isn't surprising, because that's the only thing the media is interested in and prints/broadcasts.

I am very much in favor of allowing him to compete equally on all accounts wherever possible.

 

[zed]

reminds me of this lady
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neroli_Fairhall

i feel realy bad for it, but he shouldnt be allowed to compete,
cause its a slippery slope
whats next leg extensions for highjumpers?

already this path has been crossed, look at these swimmers that wear the fullbody suits (which should be banned)
they cost what?, $1000 a pop + u can ony wear them once

they do aid the wearer (like wetsuits) they make the person lighter, which raises more of their body out of the water == less friction == faster swimming speed

the other option is to allow him to compete in an open category, along with steroid users etc

 

[Frank]

Well, the old Greeks knew how it should be done: everyone was simply naked.

On the other hand: that chemical and drug use like stereoids that all the upper tier sporters use is a much bigger problem. Talk about a grey area. And how are you going to level that playing field? You cannot have them all eat and train the exact same way.

 

[Fred]

There is a bit of a precedent being set. Its not hard to imagine sometime in the future these sorts of limbs will catapult someone to the top.

Years ago already, cyclists and track runners would go up into the mountains and thin their blood. They would then transfuse themselves right before an event. Doping with your own blood so to speak. Nice grey area, but a physical advantage all the same.

 

[Acert93]

Well shoes add weight

They also soften some of the impact, offer a uniform hard plate between your foot and the ground, and have variable length metalic spikes for nearly perfect traction.

Oh, and they are very, very light. It is absolutely remarkable the advantage track spikes give you over a running shoe.

Make his springs stiffer until there's a level playing field. The bone of contention as far as I get it is that his prothetics absorb more mechanical energy than the combination leg & shoe. So make his springs stiffer and let him compete. There, problem solved, after all sports is about fairness & unity.

I don't think sports are about fairness. Seriously. Some people are genetically better than others. Ditto technology--great atheletes often attract big dollars from companies like Nike and get exclusive, cutting edge technology to compete with and to train with. The best always have advantages--be it equipment to compete with, training techniques and facillities, or the fact genetically they just have stronger and faster muscles, more endurance, better skeleto-muscular structures to generate force and preserve energy...

And better tools to cheat and avoid detection

...he's still far slower than the worlds best (or even average). ... where did he finish? Dead last miles behind anyone.

Nice to see hyperbole transfers well between this and the conosle forums!

He obviously is never going to qualify by rights and is trying to get in through the back door playing the disability card.

It isn't so obvious he would never qualify. He is only 21 and his times are decent for a young man. And you mischaracterize him: he wants a chance to compete. He doesn't want to get in "just because" he is disabled--he wants an oppurtunity to compete to qualify based on performance. There is a big difference there.

He is running the risk of being the first disabled athlete people actually hate.

I find that most people are impressed with his effort to overcome a traumatic disability... and we tend to hate the people who live to hate. Don't you hate that?

His constant moaning gets right on my nerves.

Like others have said, the reason is simple: the media is only interested in him due to his uniqueness. It is the very reason they are talking with him. Further, he does feel that he isn't being given a fair oppurtunity to compete. Right or wrong, he has a right to express his position. The media can choose to present it or not (they have because of the uplifting story and the fact he is actually competitive) and you can choose whether to listen to news related to the issue.

There was a time when black people were considered subhuman and their constant moaning for equal rights got on a lot of people's nerves. There is always perspective.

I remember he ran against able bodied athletes in the UK last year he was bleating on about how he should always be allowed to run against able bodied athletes and where did he finish? Dead last miles behind anyone.

I was pretty good in T&F and I am not ashamed to say there were a couple occassions where I finished last. Sometimes I was overmatched, other times I had a bad day for whatever reason. Does that mean I shouldn't have been permitted to compete? No. I qualified, just like everyone else.

If he (a) meets standards and (b) meets qualifying times, then he deserves to compete, regardless if he finishes first or last.

If he is found to meet standards (the contention), then *of course* he should be allowed to compete with able bodied athletes as long as he qualifies. The problem, contrary to your hyperbole, is that he is quite competitive. No, he isn't in the very, very small elite group of people who are in a position to place first in the Olympics or World Meets (only 3 or 4 people in any event are even remotely competitive... out of 6B people) but his times are putting him near the group of people who go on to events like the Olympic Trails.

There is no energy added and he has less muscles. That should level the playing field. If it isn't allowed, they shouldn't allow the other athletes to wear shoes, as those also help retain some of the energy.

While I enjoy this young man's story, it does open up a question: Can sprinters wear shoes or other devices that allow them to retain energy? e.g. Take the general material this young man is using and create small extensions shaped in a < that compress on impact and then spring open. Instead of a significant amount of energy being lost through the shock of your foot driving downward you could conserve some of this energy and release it on the "push/drive".

I think this is one of the concerns: the use of technology to increase performance...

Well, the old Greeks knew how it should be done: everyone was simply naked.

And there is the realsolution!

Just looking at the evolution in technology over the last 70 years in T&F is pretty amazing. Not only the shoes, as mentioned above, but even the track. We don't use dirt tracks or asphalt tracks anymore, we use this "rubberized" tracks that, in conjunction with track spikes, both diminishes the shock of running while still offering a very firm and consistant/predictable feel and perfect traction to your shoes.

I guess the real question is what is the point of the Olympics and competitive T&F? You look at the disparity in training and nutrition from very young childhoold through adulthood through the world and you can see we are not all on equal footing in this regards. Are we just spitting out the best a nation can offer and creating a fairly level playing field (same equipment, same field, same place) for the event?

 

[AlphaWolf]

They also soften some of the impact, offer a uniform hard plate between your foot and the ground, and have variable length metalic spikes for nearly perfect traction.

Which of those things don't his prosthesis also do? I was never trying to argue shoes weren't an advantage over barefoot, but the shoes are a pretty uniform advantage between all athletes.

Oh, and they are very, very light. It is absolutely remarkable the advantage track spikes give you over a running shoe.

Yes but his prosthesis is likely a negative weight situation while offering all the advantages of a track shoe and potentially more.

 

[Sxotty]

I say let him compete. So what there is an advantage with his blades, Other athletes can get advantage by wearing better shoes.

That is a silly uninformed comment.

You can wear a shoe over a regular prothesis and you don't suddenly become super human.

There is no doubt that if not him in the very near future such devices will provide an enhancement to the runner over a regular person.

Why doesn't he race against other double amputees then they can be on a level playing field. If someone pulled into the tour de France with a Suzuki crotch rocket people would reasonably think it unfair.

Single amputees have it rough as they are unbalanced and cannot use ridiculous contraptions that increase their gait length. That is why I said he should only race against other double amputees. And track spikes especially return no where near the energy these do. (Not to mention even the silly spikes people get are no where near the price of his "legs".) And yes that is in quotes b/c they are not anythig like human legs, and have many huge disadvantages for many activities. That is the strange part you just change your feet out basically for different activities and it is only obvious that if the engineers are not morons designing them they should be superior to something that is a jack of all trades master of none (namely our natural feet).

 

[V3]

That is a silly uninformed comment.

You can wear a shoe over a regular prothesis and you don't suddenly become super human.

Does he becomes super human by wearing his blades ? Shoes improve your performance. His blades obviously does, since he is a disabled. Should we forced the athletes back to running naked without shoes ?

There is no doubt that if not him in the very near future such devices will provide an enhancement to the runner over a regular person.

We can deal it when it comes. As long as the enhancement is doesn't provide outside energy and don't change the action of runners, I am for it.

Why doesn't he race against other double amputees then they can be on a level playing field. If someone pulled into the tour de France with a Suzuki crotch rocket people would reasonably think it unfair.

Before this technology, double amputees wouldn't be able to compete with able-bodied. Now they can, let them compete. Its interesting you bring cycling into this, AFAIK bike development in cycling has come along way, I am sure there are technologies outlaw in the process. But I am sure today's bike is better compare to something several decades ago.

I have no idea what you had in mind with the crotch rocket, but as long as it doesn't provide outside energy, doesn't change the action of the cyclist, and not dangerous I don't see the unfairness.

Single amputees have it rough as they are unbalanced and cannot use ridiculous contraptions that increase their gait length. That is why I said he should only race against other double amputees.

Well like you said, in the future anything is possible, maybe there will be technology that allow single amputees to be competitive with able-bodied.

And track spikes especially return no where near the energy these do. (Not to mention even the silly spikes people get are no where near the price of his "legs".) And yes that is in quotes b/c they are not anythig like human legs, and have many huge disadvantages for many activities. That is the strange part you just change your feet out basically for different activities and it is only obvious that if the engineers are not morons designing them they should be superior to something that is a jack of all trades master of none (namely our natural feet).

That's the idea isn't it to master your sport. Runners' feet should master running, is not just their feet their whole body is design for running, sprinters and marathon runners have different build to suit. Engineers probably designed their shoes with different requirement.

For me as long as the technology doesn't provide outside energy, doesn't change the action and not dangerous it's fair game. Like shoes or his blades or those wetsuit like clothing that sprinter wears to reduce drag.

I like to embrace technology in sports. This technology is great, it brings double amputee to a competitive level or better compare to able-bodied in running, while maintaining the action, not providing outside energy and AFAIK not dangerous.

It’ll be nice in the future if we can see other disabled-bodied compete in NBA or other sports through technologies.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Shoes and bicycles are a uniform advantage for all athletes. They really aren't comparable to the prosthesis' in question.

 

[V3]

Shoes and bicycles are a uniform advantage for all athletes. They really aren't comparable to the prosthesis' in question.

That's right, wearing prosthesis is a disadvantage. He is still not on equal term with other able-bodied athletes. Let him compete to see if he can qualify. I doubt he can. If he proves me wrong and able to run faster on peg than any able-bodied athletes, I want to see it with my own eyes. Olympic would be a great event.

 

[nutball]

That's right, wearing prosthesis is a disadvantage. He is still not on equal term with other able-bodied athletes.

So you disagree with this then?

The decision excluding him and other disabled athletes who use such devices from the Olympics followed a scientific investigation into his springy, blade-like prosthetics carried out by a German institution last November.

That research concluded that the devices gave him a clear competitive edge over such athletes as he used 25% less energy expenditure once he had reached top speed.

 

[AlphaWolf]

That's right, wearing prosthesis is a disadvantage.

cuz you say it is?

 

[Sxotty]

We can deal it when it comes. As long as the enhancement is doesn't provide outside energy and don't change the action of runners, I am for it.

Bicycles don't provide outside energy so people can ride them in marathons now? That makes sense...

It does change the action of runners. You ever watched him run? And btw I have nothing against him. But it is irrational to have him run against regular athletes when he is enhanced. And he is enhanced even if you don't like thinking of it that way.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Pistorius wins appeal

Lausanne, Switzerland - Double-amputee sprinter Oscar Pistorius won his appeal Friday and can compete for a place in the Beijing Olympics.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled that the 21-year-old South African is eligible to race against able-bodied athletes, overturning a ban imposed by the International Association of Athletics Federations.

CAS said the unanimous ruling goes into effect immediately.

Pistorius must still reach a qualifying time to run in the individual 400 meters at the Aug. 8-24 Beijing Games. However, he can be picked for the South African relay squad without qualifying.

Pistorius appealed to CAS, world sport's highest tribunal, to overturn a Jan. 14 ruling by the IAAF which banned him from competing against able-bodied runners. The IAAF said his carbon fiber blades gave him a mechanical advantage.

A two-day hearing was held before a panel of three arbitrators at CAS headquarters last month.

Pistorius holds the 400 meter Paralympic world record of 46.56 seconds, but that time is outside the Olympic qualifying standard of 45.55. His training has also been disrupted by the appeal process.

Even if Pistorius fails to get the qualifying time, South African selectors could add the University of Pretoria student to the Olympic 1,600-meter relay squad.

Pistorius would not require a qualifying time and could be taken to Beijing as an alternate. Six runners can be picked for the relay squad. Pistorius also expects to compete in Beijing at the Sept. 6-17 Paralympic Games.

The verdict also clears Pistorius to dedicate himself to competing at the 2012 London Olympics.

The IAAF based its January decision on studies by German professor Gert-Peter Brueggemann, who said the J-shaped "Cheetah" blades were energy efficient.

Pistorius' lawyers countered with independent tests conducted by a team led by MIT professor Hugh M. Herr which claimed to show he doesn't gain any advantage over able-bodied runners.

CAS said the IAAF failed to prove that Pistorius' running blades gave him an advantage.

"The panel was not persuaded that there was sufficient evidence of any metabolic advantage in favor of a double-amputee using the Cheetah Flex-Foot," CAS said. "Furthermore, the CAS panel has considered that the IAAF did not prove that the biomechanical effects of using this particular prosthetic device gives Oscar Pistorius an advantage over other athletes not using the device."

Pistorius was born without fibulas - the long, thin outer bone between the knee and ankle - and was 11 months old when his legs were amputated below the knee. - Sapa-AP

News Source: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=4&art_id=nw20080516153322359C949257

 

[soylent]

Anyway to answer your question... if he gains mechanical advantage from his prosthetics then no he shouldn't be allowed to compete. No problem with disabled runners competing v. able-bodied, this is purely a question of whether or not the extra hardware he uses to do so represents a level playing-field wrt the able-bodied competitors.

There's no such thing as a level playing field in the first place.

People naturally have different height, different mitochondrial haplogroup(us northerners have mitochondria that produce more heat and less usable energy as a means to survive cold climate), variations in the springyness of tendons, metabolism and predisposition towards certain kinds of fat and muscle distribution.

I say bring on the cyborgs. At least it'd be more amusing to watch.