Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Brad Grenz]

perhaps you had to have the camera near your hand though to make this work

Yeah, I'm sure it's totally doable if you stand six inches from the screen and dangle your fingers in front of the camera. It was always my sense they only worked on the idea until they found out the actual hardware wasn't up to it. Which is why it's funny when people cite the game as proof on the Natal's finger tracking capabilities.

 

[(((interference)))]

...t it can be used to COMPLEMENT other games which does not used full body tracking, you know like head tracking for instance.

I forgot about this, another thing that makes Natal versatile.

You can have a traditional controller interface while using Natal for the occasional gesture/voice recognition enabled control.

We would've seen a lot more of these types of games if not for the performance overhead Natal costs now (wheras before the processing was done on the Natal chip).

 

[scently]

I forgot about this, another thing that makes Natal versatile.

You can have a traditional controller interface while using Natal for the occasional gesture/voice recognition enabled control.

We would've seen a lot more of these types of games if not for the performance overhead Natal costs now (wheras before the processing was done on the Natal chip).

Yeah, but you will definitely see it in forza, they are hiring for a Natal position, so I think its for headtracking. At least that's my guess.

 

[patsu]

perhaps you had to have the camera near your hand though to make this work

Perhaps, but Natal is a long term project like PS Eye and Wiimote. They will add better hardware to deal with it. In the mean time, someone in the labs should be working on it already. IMHO, reliable finger tracking adds a lot to the experience.

EDIT: It is entirely possible to leap ahead like what Nintendo did with 3DS. Or at least give a glimpse/demo of the future to gamers.

 

[patsu]

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/03/24/these-schematics-are-from-sonys-tony-hawk-ride-board/

Sony was, possibly still is, working on a skateboard controller of their own. We found a device similar to Activision’s Tony Hawk Ride controller in a patent application filed by Sony Computer Entertainment.

What makes Sony’s controller different is it rotates. You attach a skateboard-like controller with buttons (fig. 2) to a plastic base (figs. 3 & 4), which allows players to tilt the board. An complete set up is shown in figure 8 on top.

Reminds me of a surf board rather than a skate board.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, but you will definitely see it in forza, they are hiring for a Natal position, so I think its for headtracking. At least that's my guess.

A cynic could suggest that this feature was pretty much locked in as soon as another game company announced a similar feature. The reality though is that this is pretty much an obvious feature for racing sims especially with a cockpit view in place. Adding 3D tech to that is going to really be a big step for the genre. Some people may be skeptic, but the day they try it I expect that to be over instantly.

 

[patsu]

Personally, I think 3D vision is more compelling than "head tracking" vision.

We are bornt with 3D perception. If people are able to get past the 3D glasses, *and* the games trigger our hunter instinct and competitive spirit, the critical fighting moments and realistic death animations that follow will mersmerize a whole village of (core) gamers.

We may never look back.

Now, we are waiting for the vendors to grapple with their accounting department and R&D people.

 

[patsu]

Here's a more technical look at PS Move, plus some short game impressions:
http://www.pixelenemy.com/2010/03/move-over-natal-sony-wants-to-play/

Answered some of my earlier questions...

First, the USB connection limits the real-time capture abilities meaning there’s no way around at least a small input lag. I spoke with Senior Developer, Anton Mikhailov, at the Sony Move Meet-up event who said that they have tested out the PlayStation Eye on PC LCD monitors with about 22 millisecond lag time, which is comparable to the 16 milliseconds of lag you experience while using a Dualshock 3 Controller.
...

The next thing that would cause lag is the player’s TV. Due to variances in television technology some users may inevitably experience more lag than others. While most modern LCD, Plasma, and LED sets have this problem licked, there are some that will still suffer unnecessarily. Luckily, there’s a calibration tool at your disposal that will alleviate some of this pain through software compensation.

Finally the last thing that would cause lag is the developer. Yes the developer. The sensitivity of the controller can be turned up or down on the software side of things. Richard Marks, Senior Producer on PlayStation Move, showed me an example where the sensitivity of the device was turned down therefore there was a noticeable lag in my movements t. Then he cranked it back up to normal and everything became one-to-one again.

For example if you place the Move controller behind your back like you were holstering a sword, the camera would remember the last known position of the ball for approximately 5 seconds. Presenting the orb to the camera naturally unsheathes your blade. The controller itself feels substantial. Its made of a soft plastic, has some weight to it, and the orb is extremely fun just to smush (trust me on that one). My only complaint that there’s no analog control stick to be found when it seems that one would broaden the controller’s potential applications.

Mikhailov explained that the reason that there isn’t an analog stick on the controller is because when you are moving your arms around in 3-D space its very hard for your brain to also move your character around in 3-D space at the same time. He also said that while it was possible to have an analog stick on the controller (and they have indeed tested it), they do have to cater to the casual and hardcore audiences simultaneously; the presence of the stick will intimidate many of the casual players. He then elaborated about moving without having some sort of movement input. He said that you could hold down both triggers on the controllers which would cause your character to move forward. Then by just moving your body the character on screen would turn, look, or move in that direction. For those of you who might be skeptical of this control scheme, the Move also has the equivalent of a wireless Wii Nunchuk that works alongside the Move controller.

[size=-2]Sounds like Heavy Rain's control scheme[/size]

 

[patsu]

This one (argh) is more diabolic:
http://www.n4g.com/News-497462.aspx

Gives me serious headache, but the good thing is he keeps pestering Anton for tips and leaks (e.g., PS Home integration).

In the demo, I think Anton showed a running video on a warped window/layer.

Still all (tech) talks, and no sign of going after new audience yet.

 

[Arwin]

Yo, this is gangsta man. Gaaaaaangsta!


There's definitely some sign of ideas that we could see in current games though, like showing how boxing could work from the puppeteer demo.

 

[patsu]

I didn't know they had a PS Move Hands-on at East Coast. You can see the show goers' impressions in GAF:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391050

The Sports Champion (Gladiator Arena) game sounds promising.

This was my favorite game there. Holding two move's (there's an option to play with only one), one hand controlled a hammer and the other hand controlled the shield. I was honestly expecting something along the lines of Wii Boxing where there was input lag and throwing your hands like a maniac caused the game to not register any hits. This wasn't the case, there was 1:1 movement mirrored by the hammer and shield. Attacking in either direction had your weapon going that way.

Some guys went a little nuts (spinning, etc.) and sometimes actually managed to pull of moves but for the most part, acting like a maniac and not actually swinging the weapon towards the opponent lead to a defeat.

I'd like to try the Ping Pong game too, just to see how it compares to WiiSports Resort.

 

[eastmen]

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/817651900_UPD5c-L.jpg

penny arcade's take on the move has me cracking up for some reason. I think its the last page !

 

[LightHeaven]

Sooooo... i was watching some old natal videos and noticed something on the splash demo they showed at E3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu8_fJzN2Ik

There's definitely pointing at the screen in that demo, you can see a marker going around were his arms are pointing at the canvas...

But, didn't Kudo said that this kinda of pointing (by projecting the arms direction at the screen for instance) wasn't possible?

I don't think it would be super accurate, but this demo is doing something it wasn't supposed to XD

 

[NeoTechni]

While not accurate, they can fake with a simple old lightgun-style calibration.

Same for Move, and Wii.

It'd be even better if they'd have you enter the size of your display and position of camera in the system's menu.

 

[grandmaster]

Sooooo... i was watching some old natal videos and noticed something on the splash demo they showed at E3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu8_fJzN2Ik

There's definitely pointing at the screen in that demo, you can see a marker going around were his arms are pointing at the canvas...

But, didn't Kudo said that this kinda of pointing (by projecting the arms direction at the screen for instance) wasn't possible?

I don't think it would be super accurate, but this demo is doing something it wasn't supposed to XD

There's a big difference between pointing at the screen and having that trajectory mapped to a point on the display, and having a pointer on-screen which is controlled by arm gestures.

 

[NeoTechni]

There's a big difference between pointing at the screen and having that trajectory mapped to a point on the display, and having a pointer on-screen which is controlled by arm gestures.

Agreed, nicely put

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Regarding Move, it might not be original but its a definitive improvement over the Wiimote and has a lot more potential applications. Save for privacy reasons i dont understand why Nintendo choose to do an "inverse" kind of tracking with the camera.

The Wiimote style with camera in the controller is far superior in some ways. It doesn't require players to stay in the camera's FOV for instance. So you can easily have 4 people flailing around without having to make sure they stay in the FOV of the camera.

On the flip side it does have drawbacks, as you obviously won't be able to do any head tracking for instance. But for 4 player active party games, it's by far the superior method of input.

Both Sony and MS on the other hand need to require players to stay within a limited area.

Regards,
SB

 

[NeoTechni]

Well Wii requires the sensor bar to be withing the FOV of the wiimote for it's absolute positioning to work.

Move just reverses that, allowing it to work at more angles.

Both have their flaws

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Altho more resource hungry, which could make a big difference WRT implementation and takeup.

Move will also be resource hungry, requiring 1 SPE to be reserved for it's use. Isn't 1 SPE already reserved for the gameOS? Sony also hasn't mentioned how much memory will need to be reserved for Move.

So it could well end up at 15% or more of total system resources similar to Natal.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

A cynic could suggest that this feature was pretty much locked in as soon as another game company announced a similar feature. The reality though is that this is pretty much an obvious feature for racing sims especially with a cockpit view in place. Adding 3D tech to that is going to really be a big step for the genre. Some people may be skeptic, but the day they try it I expect that to be over instantly.

Have been trying various 3D systems since around 1996, and while initially impressive, there's been nothing to move it beyond a short novelty.

I'm not expecting things to change there until there's a system that requires no addtional hardware (that also works with large viewing angles, without glitching) other than the display and machine. IE - no glasses etc.

As well any system used will have to accurately take into acount the distance between a person's iris' otherwise, the subtle difference between simulated 3D and actual real world stereo vision produces sometimes significant eyestrain with prolonged useage.

Anyway, color me totally unimpressed with any of the showings I've recently seen. One of the most impressive systems I've used was well over a decade ago, and used a system with LCD's reflected off mirrors in a head mounted display to simulate an 80" diagonal screen X meters away. It actually did relatively well in reducing eyestrain compared to other head mounted displays and shutter glasses at the time.

Regards,
SB