Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[(((interference)))]

The problem with that, is if the controller is not part of the standard setup supported by the platform holder it will not be supported by developers. (If they limit the input to the standard controller it´s no problem though)

Just look at EyeToy which sold several millions units but never gained support outside Sony.

With regard to Natal2, not really surprising in my opinion, research takes time. I bet Sony has a better camera in the works as well. I remember at the time of the realease of the Playstation Eye it was mentioned that there had been internal discussions at Sony of whether the camera should suppport HD or not, but it was decided based upon price. Not really surprising after the backlash of the $600 PS3. I remember Dr Marks said the PlaystationEye didn´t cost more than the EyeToy which I thought was a bit surprising considering it contains considerable more functionality: higher resolution, higher frame rate, mic array, two state lense etc.

True, but I suppose we could see developers including 'enhanced' control schemes where a sub controller can be used, much like how Sony mentioned some games will have enhanced functionality if you use two wands instead of just one (or just one and the sub controller).

Versatile? Maybe in the same way a hunk of wood is more versatile than finished furniture. But you're not going to turn videogame accessory potential into a videogame accessory product in your home yourself.

It's more versatile in that it can be used effectively with or without a handheld controller (perhaps we'll even see games come bundled with controllers).
Also Natal will enhance the general UI of the 360, even outside of games. i.e. profile login via facial recognition, voice and gesture controls etc.

The biggest issue with Natal is whether it actually works and whether the retail product will be significantly watered down from what was originally promised in order to make it work.

 

[obonicus]

I wonder if we'll see more augmented reality/prop use at E3, for Natal. Beyond the E3 concept video there's been practically no talk on the subject.

 

[Crossbar]

True, but I suppose we could see developers including 'enhanced' control schemes where a sub controller can be used, much like how Sony mentioned some games will have enhanced functionality if you use two wands instead of just one (or just one and the sub controller).

If you by sub controller is refering to the Playstation sub controller it´s just an optional "half" DS3 and the DS3 will still be bundled with every PS3. Maybe MS will introduce a similar half controller which works better with Natal who knows. However, they made a big deal of controller free gaming, but that may just be marketing speech.

I am also curious of how Sony will handle the two wand games, obviously there will be games that will require two wands like fighting games. Maybe it will only be the Move games in the starter pack that works with one controler. Adaptions of more traditional games (like SOCOM and Resident Evil) will probably also be fine with just one wand and the DS3.

 

[ShadowRunner]

This would pretty much nullify many of the advantages the Move would have over Natal.

Natal already seems to be the most versatile of the three.

On the same note though it could also be possible to upgrade PSEye to a 3D camera at some point, and it could be a cheeper upgrade than a natal user who may need to purchase multiple wands. Very doubtful though.

 

[goonergaz]

This would pretty much nullify many of the advantages the Move would have over Natal.

Natal already seems to be the most versatile of the three.

Altho more resource hungry, which could make a big difference WRT implementation and takeup.

 

[patsu]

The IR camera only works over a certain distance. we've seen this in Marks' messing around with a 3DV camera video. He'd move back then the IR cam wouldn't show him any more. Minimum distance is down to the angle of the lens. You need to be far enough away so it can see enough of you.

Are you trying to tell me 2 meters away from the TV is not far enough for Natal ? I don't believe it.

Ever since Natal was announce, it has been said in many interviews that it can be used in conjunction with a controller. I don't know how you guys are suddenly getting the idea that it it must be a motion controller, the article mentions nothing of such. It can be used with a controller as a complimentary device.
Let me give an example for clarity sake. The next forza might use Natal for headtracking and the traditional controller for normal input. Actually Turn10 is hiring right now for a Natal position.

The problem is they sent mixed messages. "You are the controller !" (but why am I still holding a 360 controller then ?), and "You can use an additional controller/accessory if necessary". Not to blame them, but I think they were just looking for a sweet spot at that time. Now they should be more certain of what message to push.

I wonder if we'll see more augmented reality/prop use at E3, for Natal. Beyond the E3 concept video there's been practically no talk on the subject.

My guess is they will show a wide range of use cases to illustrate its useful to core gamers and casual gamers, props or no props.

Personally, I think augmented reality or a virtual playground is a feasible way to differentiate from Wiimote style gaming. Even for PS Move which is seen as a more refined Wiimote+, the seamless integration of detailed VR environment, and shared online space (because you know the absolute position of the players involved) can convey a different feel altogether. If done well, the total environment should be more useful, immersive and pleasant to use.

I'd love to use my XMB in the hills of Flower.

EDIT:
For the record, I also want:

* Clap hands to light up PS Move (coz we misplace remotes all the time because of the kid). [strike]Useful for brown out/black out too. We had 2 of these in Palo Alto last month. [/strike] [size=-2]Doesn't work in power outage because mic is hooked up to PS3. Unless they have button combo to turn on light for self-test. ^_^[/size]

* Make walking totally optional in PS Home because now I can use the controller or gestures to fetch/activate far away items. This should make that place even more usable.


In fact, I'd downplay the name "PS Move". It's just a name for the motion controller hardware. The overall experience Sony is selling should be more than that. They should come up with a different name for this experience. It is very important for them to add all those AI recognitions, controller-free gesture work, user generated content, Playstation Network value-added services to this final experience. They need to roll up as a whole.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That seems highly unlikely. For full body capture, perhaps, because you need the whole skeleton to be in view to get a lock (which is actually a consideration for gaming environment). However the mechanics of the camera should work like any camera, and function to a near distance. This is what finger tracking would need in that finger fighter game. Does anyone know if they got beyond a drawing-board concept to a working prototype with that?

 

[patsu]

I believe 2-3 meters is where most of the action takes place (No hard data though ). Many families still have mid-sized SDTV, which is smaller than HDTV. By hook or by crook, the marketing folks will force the engineers to make it happen. I would !

 

[Arwin]

The IR camera only works over a certain distance. we've seen this in Marks' messing around with a 3DV camera video. He'd move back then the IR cam wouldn't show him any more. Minimum distance is down to the angle of the lens. You need to be far enough away so it can see enough of you.

Also we can see that so far all the demoes would first capture your full body to take into account your size and dimensions. Once that has been done, you can move very close to the camera and it will still track you correctly. But that initial capture may be very important, and for all the games demonstrated so far it needs to see you completely. This then added maybe to IR functions requiring some separation between you and the background furniture and a minimum distance perhaps, makes this not impossible to believe.

Mind you, I may probably run into some trouble playing the table tennis game with the PS Move currently as well, as for some bits of table tennis you need to move away from the table a fair bit at times.

 

[Danalys]

I figure it's easier to recognising whole bodies rather than partial bodies to apply a skeleton to. Once it's got the persons skeleton sorted it can track individual parts and expects parts out of view to come into view when they would.

Took some room even for Eyetoy games.

 

[patsu]

Mind you, I may probably run into some trouble playing the table tennis game with the PS Move currently as well, as for some bits of table tennis you need to move away from the table a fair bit at times.

If it works like Wii's Table Tennis, the game will approximate the lower body movement for you. You are unlikely to miss a ball because of position. You need to keep your bat up to be ready though, otherwise the avatar seems to lag before he dashes to the ball.

I played the game in Fry's without moving at all (standing 3 feet or 1 meter away). The screen was 20" or something.

Took some room even for Eyetoy games.

... for the body flailing game because you fling your limbs around. For other games, 2 meters (6-7 feet) works fine. Heck, the Eye of Judgment stand is only 1.x feet tall. The camera looks down into the play mat.


EDIT:

Also we can see that so far all the demoes would first capture your full body to take into account your size and dimensions. Once that has been done, you can move very close to the camera and it will still track you correctly.

If so, they can store your profile once and for all, including facial data for recognition purposes.

If the base technology can estimate hidden body parts, perhaps they can do so for out of bound body parts too.

 

[scently]

They never sent mixed messages. Natal is an accessory. Its main aim is to provide controller free gaming. But it can be used to COMPLEMENT other games which does not used full body tracking, you know like head tracking for instance. Damn I am repeating myself. I think I will stop now and if you still don't want to see the point then there is no use trying to explain it.
There is nothing wrong with liking the PSmove, actually if I find a compelling reason to buy it, I will, actually I most likely will. But what I don't get is the need to discredit, downplay or try to twist the message MSFT is sending with the Natal.
Also I think this needs to be said, The success or failure of Natal has absolutely nothing to do with those who post in forums, it is first and foremost (at least from MSFT development point of view) a product targeted at the casual or non gamers.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Natal will work in rooms of all sizes, obviously:

Microsoft was quick to issue a statement denying what TechFlash had reported, telling Kotaku, "The comments recently about the play space for Project Natal were misinterpreted. It is true that the Project Natal sensor reads the configuration of your room and adjusts play space, as appropriate. We know that living rooms come in all shapes and sizes, and have conducted numerous play tests to ensure everyone will be able to jump off the couch and into the fun when Project Natal launches globally this holiday."

 

[patsu]

They never sent mixed messages. Natal is an accessory. Its main aim is to provide controller free gaming. But it can be used to COMPLEMENT other games which does not used full body tracking, you know like head tracking.

Then why in the world did you complain when people talk about using additional accessories to complement Natal ? The 360 controller complements Natal and vice versa. They admitted that finger tracking is not considered for various reasons anyway. So a glove can complement it too, just like EA wants to use vitality sensors with Natal.


If you read further up, there are people who are confused about whether adding a controller would make sense for Natal. MS's tagline is at odds with the situation where you need a controller to complete the experience.

As for casual audience focus, I agree it's critical for MS to go after big N.

 

[AzBat]

That seems highly unlikely. For full body capture, perhaps, because you need the whole skeleton to be in view to get a lock (which is actually a consideration for gaming environment). However the mechanics of the camera should work like any camera, and function to a near distance. This is what finger tracking would need in that finger fighter game. Does anyone know if they got beyond a drawing-board concept to a working prototype with that?

They did not get beyond the idea. There was no prototype & they were not offered any Natal hardware to develop on.

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

The two-finger hero project did it for 12 days, according to here:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/arkedos_cancelled_natal_projec.php

The company posted mocked-up screenshots and an excerpt from its design document, explaining that it worked on the game for only 12 days before ditching it and moving onto other titles.

EDIT:
Ah, also forgot Pachter's tips on some company contracted to do finger tracking UI.

 

[patsu]

Video interview with Anton after the Engadget Show:
http://www.sonyinsider.com/2010/03/24/engadget-takes-on-the-playstation-move/

Apparently the PS2 Eyetoy consumed aproximately 25% of the consoles power right off the top, making it more difficult to present this as viable option to developers,

Dr. Marks commented on the latency delay of 22 ms that was seen on screen. He added things such as television delay and display delay are things that are out of their control. Anton later added that what we are looking at now is just raw output before any filters or tweaks have been applied.

Given the tech demo centric approach, it looks like Sony is only interested in the gamers and tech folks. So far, not much on targeting casuals. Even the Augmented Reality stuff I mentioned above are pretty generic/basic. A marketer would have identified the target audience (toy folks, female, kids, educators, media folks) and gone after them with trial content package.

 

[AzBat]

The two-finger hero project did it for 12 days, according to here:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/arkedos_cancelled_natal_projec.php

According to Arkedo at NeoGaf(the source of your article), they never did any code during those 12 days. Just put together some bullshots & design document. BTW, it was a direct response to my suggestion that their non-Arkedo Series project was actually a Natal project they mentioned before. Their response was it wasn't, thus the bean spilling on what the Natal project actually was.

The Natal project never saw light (even though our little concept document was discussed by two big publishers, but the deal eventually fell flat in the end. The Natal SDK and hardware changed quite a bit down the road, and I guess we were not relevant with Natal final design, as the game was quite demanding on one of the specs which got apparently toned-down). No, I cannot discuss this any further, go away. Please.

This project was something we did while waiting for our former publisher to pay for our first milestone for Big Bang Mini for the Wii (we were halfways; he never did = we are suing). Then, after we did the Natal project doc, we decided to start the Series.

<snip>

Don't expect too much, though: from the time we started thinking about it, to the time we made the little 8-page design document, there was only 10/12 days of work for just one (talented) guy: Aurélien, the co-founder and artistic director for Arkedo.

<snip>

As promised, please find some bullshots and a small excerpt from our design document for our -now dead- Natal project. Please remember that we could only allow ourselves to work 12 days on this, so it's very far from being polished stuff. The screenshots are bullshit of course, but they respect the technical limitations, and also were designed so they could fit in with our tools. So they are semi-bullshots.

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

Interesting, what did he do within those 12 days besides the artwork ?

there was only 10/12 days of work for just one (talented) guy: Aurélien, the co-founder and artistic director for Arkedo.

We know it's possible to do hand gesture (involving fingers) with some depth camera though. MS will dabble in it sooner or later.

 

[Nesh]

The two-finger hero project did it for 12 days, according to here:
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2010/01/arkedos_cancelled_natal_projec.php



EDIT:
Ah, also forgot Pachter's tips on some company contracted to do finger tracking UI.

perhaps you had to have the camera near your hand though to make this work