Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[patsu]

Sexiest Move game, according to Destructoid:
http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-10-the-best-and-sexiest-move-game-ever-slider-166626.phtml
(gameplay video inside)

Slider is set in Hong Kong. A poor office boss and his lovely secretary are holed up in their office. The bills are overdue and the mafia is out to get them. Their only escape? Office equipment. You'll play as either the boss or the sexy, long-legged secretary, and you'll use an office chair to slide downhill, working to avoid enemies and obstacles.

I asked Slider producer George Weising if anyone used the boss instead of the lovely bun-haired, busty girl. He said, "I do...sometimes."

"Most people don't, though."

...

When you watch the video, look at her face in the upper left corner. Hilarious.

 

[patsu]

Kotaku has a Socom 4 + Move impression:
http://kotaku.com/5491943/motion+co...ocom-fans-shouldnt-fear-move?skyline=true&s=i

the game was originally developed for the Playstation 3's standard controller. They later added in the ability to play the game with Move.

...

Taking the Move controller in my right hand and button-packed sub-controller in my left, I took the game for a short test drive. As McWhertor laid out in his write up of SOCOM 4 with Move, the game uses a thumbstick on the left controller to move around and pointing and aiming with the right to look around and shoot.

Various buttons let you throw grenades, zoom in, reload, fire and sprint. Almost no motions are used besides for aiming. But there's a good chance that could change before release.

Byrne said that the team is looking at a lot of options for adding optional motions into the game to do things like zoom in, run or even... "victory dance."

...

The only thing I wasn't happy with was the turning speed. This would only come into play if I was flanked in a match, something that can happen quite a bit. But Byrne said that the team plans to tweak that. Perhaps, he said, they'll allow gamers to tweak the settings themselves so they can control the turn speed and how far a person has to point away from center of screen to start turning.

...

[suggestion using the light ball for gaming nixed]

..

the ball can change colors up to once a second, so perhaps they could do something with it.

I'd say add a trophy for killing a teabagger caught in action. (I heard R2 had it but Insomniac took it away before release).

Also, I think horror/adventure games may be more suitable as a platform to toy with the light ball (Forcing you to handle 2 things at once. Heavy Rain uses this technique rather well).

 

[NeoTechni]

Dont know how accurate natal is but if the can show finger tracking on E3.

I haven't seen it do that though. Anyone got a vid?

Also, for those saying NATAL can use a 360 controller, then it becomes a glorified sixaxis since your arms are stuck to the controller. If MS really wanted to do that, they'd make a device that plugs into 360 Controller charge port, that has a blig glowing ball on it to make it easier (processing power wise) to track.

 

[liolio]

Take two... even if nobody wants to hear it as far as functionalities are concerned "ps move" is a cumbersome and uncompleted rendition of the wiimote. From one mini game to another you can still play with the wiimote it has a a d-pad button etc, standing the ps3 move "flat" means hiding the light bulb, etc. It's a pretty inelegant solution overall

Spoiler

putting whatever natal does or doesn't aside for the warmongers under disguise

I find it pretty funny how a "paralelipedic" design is the better fit to quiet some roles, should give some ergonomists quiet some headaches

 

[MfA]

standing the ps3 move "flat" means hiding the light bulb

How exactly do you mean? Flat with the bulb towards your body?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I thought Butty's comparison was pretty unbiased and accurate. He merely posted known flaws of Natal.

But not the equivalent advantages, nor the equivalent flaws in PS3. eg. The issues with recognition of Natal are based on a rumour, whereas the issues with Move's recognition are documented in DF's preview of Move.

I'm surprised he omitted the 200 ms delay * number of players.

Where did you get that figure? Nothing I've seen or read suggests close to half a second latency for multiple players, a latency that's utterly unusable.

It's not like he can post more info when it's not known yet.

But the post wasn't balanced in the information it did provide. The several checklist points for Move's components, yet grouping Natal's features to present fewer points, is just part of its imbalance.

Natal is not much more than "- camera allows body and head tracking of the player, microphone in camera recognizes sounds and voice". That pretty much is it.

And Move is "a controller that allows hand tracking of the player, camera adds a video feed."

I don't think Move is susceptible to lighting conditions since the system is designed to choose the best color of the orb to stick out.

Again, you are showing a lack of understanding of the underlying technologies. Move works with the visible spectrum, with the limitations of cheap camera optics and limited dynamic range of the CCDs. The colour is not the only issue. If I'm playing on a cloudy day and then the clouds open and sunlight streams through the window, it could very well play havok with Move's optical detection. We already have a report of bright lights affecting Move's tracking. I dare say Move is very robust in handling difficult situations, but it'd be foolish to say it's not susceptible to lighting conditions.

 

[grandmaster]

About Natal and fingers. I asked Kudo Tsunoda about this directly. He said that it would cause problems tracking fingers for people with small hands. Like children for example, a significant proportion of the console audience. I mean, this is the creative director of the entire project giving it to me straight.

So if he is saying that finger tracking is a no-go, and the main R&D man on Move is saying that Natal doesn't track fingers (and I found him to be a refreshingly objective source - as R&D people non-schooled in PR often are), then I can assume it doesn't track fingers. Anton Mikhailhov's comments on how gameplay depth is connected to the hands and fingers was interesting stuff.

The most frustrating thing I've found in Natal and Move is that the tech demos look absolutely amazing on both projects. The upper-body motion tracking on Move was eye-opening stuff. The skeleton tracking on Natal, and how it worked even when body parts were not in camera range, was stunning. And this is just the stuff we've seen. The stuff I've heard about on both projects and what they are being used for is really exciting.

Problem is that in both cases, the actual software I saw didn't live up to the tech demos and the potential. I see it as a situation whereby the game-makers are still adjusting to the new interface and maybe conceptually they're a bit worried about pushing the envelope.

 

[dragonelite]

Its kinda disappointing to hear natal isn't able to track finger movement.
Had at least hoped it could follow two fingers let say the index and middle finger(gun hand gestures). I can see the casuals use natal for the sports game. But the people who now own a 360 the core gamer are not interested in jumping around making large movement to control the game. The core needs something that can track hands and finger movement while they sit on the couch or floor. They already complain about having to wear glasses with 3D gaming which i don't really see succeeding not this gen atleast not with game support.

And what are the possibilities of microsoft upgrading the hardware like a more accurate camera?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Its kinda disappointing to hear natal isn't able to track finger movement.
Had at least hoped it could follow two fingers let say the index and middle finger(rude hand gestures).

Fixed!

And what are the possibilities of microsoft upgrading the hardware like a more accurate camera?

Next gen when the tech has improved. It needs a full-framerate HD CCD working with whatever tech MS are using (time of flight, pattern projection?). The advent of 720p/1080p video capture in mobile devices suggests this isn't too far off, but it's too late for Natal now and will need to wait for the next round.

 

[patsu]

Problem is that in both cases, the actual software I saw didn't live up to the tech demos and the potential. I see it as a situation whereby the game-makers are still adjusting to the new interface and maybe conceptually they're a bit worried about pushing the envelope.

They need more time. Researching and applying new UI paradigm is a standalone challenge in its own right. Core gamers are accustomed to existing control schemes. Even Wii can't solve that part just yet after 3 or so years. Since the games are HD, the vendors have to make an impressive looking game, and a refreshingly fun game at the same time (to appeal to core gamers).

I think the marketers should still be able to distill their on-going researches and present their findings more succintly instead of letting everything run loose. In the process, they can manage expectation and channel the consumers attention better.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

They need more time.

I disagree. Perhaps I should say I lack your optimism. Sixaxis motion hasn't been used particularly successfully despite plenty of time to develop ideas. Likewise camera-based interfaces haven't come to much. IMO there's a fundamental lack of imagination when it comes to adopting new interfaces, a problem not cured by time. If developers are showing limited interest game ideas now, I doubt we'll see much advance on that in the next 3 years. Maybe the place to look will be indie DD titles?

 

[dragonelite]

Found this a really interesting video on using the Wii mote for finger tracking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0awjPUkBXOU

Isn't this guy suppose to work on natal too?
I can already see microsoft releasing a IR reflective handglove

 

[patsu]

I disagree. Perhaps I should say I lack your optimism. Sixaxis motion hasn't been used particularly successfully despite plenty of time to develop ideas. Likewise camera-based interfaces haven't come to much. IMO there's a fundamental lack of imagination when it comes to adopting new interfaces, a problem not cured by time. If developers are showing limited interest game ideas now, I doubt we'll see much advance on that in the next 3 years. Maybe the place to look will be indie DD titles?

SIXAXIS has a different problem. It was latched onto an existing controller. That means it has to work with existing control schemes. It's a more difficult and more limited proposition. Nonetheless, we have Flower and Folklore, which justified SIXAXIS' existence in my view.

PSEye is a missed opportunity on the PS3 so far, but at least they came up with sketch recognition which blew my mind. I am still waiting for a simple draw-your-own-Tank game. EyeToy performed well on PS2 but the follow up was lacking on PS3. Eye of Judgment is a superb game, but you could play the same thing with just cards (and people have done so).

For Move, I reckon the difficult parts are:

(1) Integrate and apply it to the existing environment. That's usually the bulk of the work (integration). e.g., the Tennis, Golf and avatar fighting games may be "it". However, they need to do them in a deep and fun way/environment. PS Move, and perhaps Wiimote+ too, seem to open up new possibilities just because they can mimic live actions precisely and accurately. Unfortunately, it is difficult for us to internalize the experience without trying them personally.

(2) Find a common must-solve/painful problem. These would be harder to find. But I think Natal's remote-free control may be "it". On the Move, I think sketch recognition (for media search) is a gem too. Will Sony add it to XMB ? [size=-2]For reference, Home took 1.5 years and *lot's of* user complains to refine their worldmap UI.[/size]. Now if they were to consider sketch recognition + media search for the PS3, Sony will also need to add remote file system support to PS3 (more work !).

EDIT:
For finger tracking, I don't think tracking a child's fingers is important for media playback. I'll be very happy if my PS3 ignores my son's gestures, and only tracks my wife's and my fingers. It's all about the context and how you message it -- assuming MS can make adult finger tracking work reliably. I am not convinced this is an age issue.

 

[cbarcus]

SIXAXIS has a different problem. It was latched onto an existing controller. That means it has to work with existing control schemes. It's a more difficult and more limited proposition. Nonetheless, we have Flower and Folklore, which justified SIXAXIS' existence in my view.

I would add that rising/leaning in SOCOM: Confrontation and precision sniping in Killzone 2 are both killer uses of SIXAXIS, and I would sorely miss the feature if it was now absent.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

SIXAXIS has a different problem. It was latched onto an existing controller. That means it has to work with existing control schemes. It's a more difficult and more limited proposition. Nonetheless, we have Flower and Folklore, which justified SIXAXIS' existence in my view.

There are a few niche titles, but the possibilities haven't been widely adopted. Prior to PS3's release we discussed possible uses in comobination with conventional controls, yet instead we have a couple of motion titles, a couple of titles with motion integrated useful, and a number of hacked-in motion controls that were abandoned (like Uncharted 2's drop of motion). We haven't got motion in FIFA to aid dribbling, or in platformers to determine casual gamers real intentions. So many missed opportunities, and zero progress in that regard. By now, if time is all it needs to really use a new interface, we'd have countless examples. And one can point to Wii too. How much stuff is being invented, and how much is just cribbing Nintendo's ideas?

 

[patsu]

Wiimote represents the first successful leap in a long history of failures and small successes. It is inevitable for other companies to build on top of it, like how the rest of the world copied the mouse interface and the multi-touch interface.

I'd think Move is competiting with Wiimote+, which is relatively new, and both can do new tricks that were impossible on Wiimote. Besides, Move and Natal can solve other "unique" problems using the camera. Nintendo will have its own focus areas with the Vitality Sensor.

EDIT:
For SIXAXIS, I don't necessarily think it's zero progress. It's meant to enhance the DS3 control schemes, which Move won't be able to capture. Some people/applications just ain't going to move away from DS3.

 

[patsu]

Kotaku wrapping up their GDC 2010 Move reports with 2 observations:
http://kotaku.com/5492721/two-surprise-playstation-move-maneuvers

The Sony developer pressed the Move's PlayStation button, which produced the console's standard, overlaid menus allowing the player to quit the game. To swipe from a "no" to a "yes" response, the developer waved his Move hand and pressed a button. The game quit. To swipe through the XMB and restart the game, he waved his hand some more.

to make their gladiator taunt, the Sports Champion gamer must put his or her hands behind their back. When that happens, the PlayStation Eye camera that detects and tracks the sphere located at the tip of the Move wand can't see it anymore. The disappearance seems to be the prompt for the taunt.

 

[grandmaster]

I see Nintendo painting the Move as a "me too" product: http://www.vg247.com/2010/03/13/more-reggie-on-move-im-blushing-im-so-flattered/

It's an interesting spin on things. I mean technically speaking, Move is technologically superior to the Wii MotionPlus and a generation ahead of the original Wiimote. But you play titles like Motion Fighter, The Shoot and even SOCOM 4 and the control schemes *do* feel very, very close to what we're already playing on Wii. SOCOM *felt* uncannily similar to the likes of The Conduit and CoD4 on Wii.

Very interested to see what they do with camera (the augmented reality stuff is excellent) and really hope that the head-tracking in GT5 lives up to the potential of the concept.

 

[patsu]

I agree with Reggie !

At the same time, I don't think Sony is wrong to copy them. But they are still weak in comparison with Nintendo in motion sensing software (maturity). It is a very difficult (marketing) road to take, not a smart one.

Nonetheless, copying -- or building on top of prior achievements -- is part of innovation (e.g., Natal is a camera-based system like EyeToy). There are things Nintendo would not want to add to their Wiimote, but Sony could (because the audience is different). There are technical direction Sony wants to go where Nintendo shunts.

If we were to leave the mouse up to Apple alone, we would still be stuck with one button mouse today.

EDIT: I also don't think that the copying is detrimental to Nintendo. I think it may endorse and help grow Wii software developer base also -- assuming Sony doesn't screw up Move.

 

[zed]

If we were to leave the mouse up to Apple alone

well they nicked it from someone else working at xerox.
Reggie looks to be having a hissy tantrum cause once move/natal launches then wii's 'free run' is over. If these 2 new control schemes take off then I expect wiiHD to launch next year