Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[patsu]

No, the PARC mouse has 3 buttons as far as I can remember. There might be an earlier one with only one button, but Apple's one-button mouse is an Apple thing that they impose until present. I have seen one to three button mouse in the early days, but these days 2-button is the most prevalent.

 

[Graham]

... The upper-body motion tracking on Move was eye-opening stuff....

From what I've seen, that particular demo was simply 3 point tracking (ie, two hands + head position) - Given the PS3 already has libs for head tracking.

It was impressive, yes, but from what I could see the superimposed 3D model was simply translated into position so the body matched the head position. Although the head did still rotate. The arms were then applying basic inverse kinematics I'd guess. It would also suffer the same lighting issues as EyeToy, probably single player only, occlusion, etc, so I don't expect it to be that widely used.

...

It's interesting there has been no PR whatsoever for Natal. I'm not sure it's a bad thing either, it would have been a very PR noisy GDC otherwise.
I'm assuming E3 will be the big showdown. At which point Nintendo busts out the vitality sensor and wows everyone with 'relaxing games'.

 

[Squilliam]

well they nicked it from someone else working at xerox.
Reggie looks to be having a hissy tantrum cause once move/natal launches then wii's 'free run' is over. If these 2 new control schemes take off then I expect wiiHD to launch next year

If as you showed in your NPD graphics the Wii is indeed declining, then that cannot be a good portent for the Sony Move which copies the Wii original concept. If Nintendo does revive the Wiis fortunes once again then it will probably be in a way that Sony cannot initially counter so again they would be playing catchup. Either way its not a good position to be in as a follower.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The arms were then applying basic inverse kinematics I'd guess.

Yeah, it looked that way to me. The hand positions were tracked perfectly, but the arms were just valid solutions and didn't reflect the player's arm positions. It's a bit much to call it upper-body tracking. More upper-body approximating.

 

[patsu]

The head is probably some form of Omega Tracking first revealed here:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1269853

Then, they add the motion controller tracking in parallel.

As long as it maintains the same responsiveness, it would be rather usable.

Gameplay wise, they can't rely on lower body movement. So I guess the developers will have to depend on the same motion controller snappiness to do blocking.

EDIT: Someone mentioned facial recognition or facial expression recognition, but those are sensitive to lighting conditions. Not sure how much they will slow down the whole process.

 

[Arwin]

t was impressive, yes, but from what I could see the superimposed 3D model was simply translated into position so the body matched the head position. Although the head did still rotate. The arms were then applying basic inverse kinematics I'd guess. It would also suffer the same lighting issues as EyeToy, probably single player only, occlusion, etc, so I don't expect it to be that widely used.

On the other hand, it's virtually lag-free, and that's worth something! If I have been paying attention correctly, it's already used in the Table Tennis game (which I certainly enjoyed) which also seems to support it for two players.

I think that for the most part, inverse kinematics is going to be sufficient. The biggest factor here is how accurate the face-tracking will be versus the tracking of the Move controllers - the face tracking won't be as one-to-one as the hands, and I think that will be its weakest link.

So far though I'm really excited about move. Still can't wait to get it, and I really look forward to seeing what we're getting for E3, where I'm especially also expecting some combinations of Move and 3D (I think this is where the really big guns are, like say a version of MLB the Show in 3D and using the Move combined).

I'm already scheduling the purchase of a 3D TV for 2011.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think that for the most part, inverse kinematics is going to be sufficient.

Sure. It's unlikely to be a gameplay changing feature where the arms are. IK will just be used to add convincing looking arms to the avatar. Move with two controllers will be enough for any Mech game, Godzilla/RAMPAGE, pancake flipper, etc. Natal should definitely have the edge in a volleyball game though.

 

[patsu]

I think the main problem is how Sony messages it. For the most part, I hear developers whined about hardcore games not selling on Wii. Now with Sony committing to motion gaming and throwing their resources into make core gaming mechanics work on the platform, there has to be some upside for Wii game developers and consumers.

Anyway, an "Under Siege" (RTS game) developer posted on GAF:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20275680&postcount=195

Regarding the Mouse and keyboard and why we don't support it (again).
This was discussed intensely at the offices when we were designing the thing and got cut right at the beginning.

This was not easy since we are big fans of RTSs like "Company of Heroes", "Rise of Legends" and "Generals" (Generals doesn't get the love it deserved) and we can't wait to play Starcraft2, but having a Keyboard and Mouse with you on your sofa or asking everyone to plug in this devices just to play our game doesn't make any sense.

Supporting the Playstation Move was an easy... er... "move"
It makes sense.

Well, if a small game like ours manages to incorporate the Move correctly and make it a fact that RTSs on consoles make sense now, maybe we can expect our favorite developers getting they're games on console.

EDIT:

So far though I'm really excited about move. Still can't wait to get it, and I really look forward to seeing what we're getting for E3, where I'm especially also expecting some combinations of Move and 3D (I think this is where the really big guns are, like say a version of MLB the Show in 3D and using the Move combined).

I'm already scheduling the purchase of a 3D TV for 2011.

If they do a good Avatar "puppetry" mini-game, complete with 3D vision support, and bundle it with the Avatar 3D Blu-ray movie, I will push for 3D monitor/TV at home. Now my plan is only to refresh my office PS3 setup.

 

[LightHeaven]

Found this a really interesting video on using the Wii mote for finger tracking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0awjPUkBXOU

Isn't this guy suppose to work on natal too?
I can already see microsoft releasing a IR reflective handglove

Hmmm, the setup he have there is pretty much how natal track things, using a ir-sensitive camera and a ir projector.

If all Ms needs to allow finger tracking at a greater distance is increasing reflectiveness of your hand than i hope they release natal with some sort of glove to allow that greater precision. And maybe put some buttons on it aswell

 

[Asher]

Hmmm, the setup he have there is pretty much how natal track things, using a ir-sensitive camera and a ir projector.

If all Ms needs to allow finger tracking at a greater distance is increasing reflectiveness of your hand than i hope they release natal with some sort of glove to allow that greater precision. And maybe put some buttons on it aswell

Next-generation power-glove...seriously though, there may be something to this.

Use a combined effort of increased IR reflection material with some other sensors to determine things like when you move a finger in a "trigger-like" way. Eg, if your finger makes a trigger-like movement, send that event to the game. As long as it's cheap...

 

[LightHeaven]

I found this video on "project natal" (actually it was 3dv camera) being demoed, on a Ps2, 5 years ago.

Curiously, the demos there look more impressive than waht Ms demoed at E3 last year, at least precision wise. They have a finer painting demo, that looks like the move party painting game, and at the beginning of the video when he is showing the camera view and an overlap with a green background his fingers are clearly visible from a shorter distance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYHr0I-iFHE

 

[patsu]

Ha ha, that's Dr. Richard Marks.

Next-generation power-glove...seriously though, there may be something to this.

Use a combined effort of increased IR reflection material with some other sensors to determine things like when you move a finger in a "trigger-like" way. Eg, if your finger makes a trigger-like movement, send that event to the game. As long as it's cheap...

I agree.

All 3 vendors should (and will) evolve their current systems, as long as the feedback from the market and partners are positive.
[size=-2]They will have to make cute little gloves for kids too.[/size]

 

[(((interference)))]

But how do you switch out of gun mode and into grenade throwing mode (and back)? How can the system tell you're pointing your squad in a direction and not your weapon? Pointing is only a tiny part of usual game interfaces. It's easy to forget that these interactions or mode shifts need to be triggered in some fashion, one that does not intefere with the pointing function in the ideal case. Making a gesture is a bad trigger action because it invalidates your pointing direction (on the same hand).

How do you even shoot? Even to just pause your game you already need a voice command or fall back on a traditional pad controller, and you're talking about games where you have to simultaneously aim and strafe and shoot and jump and manage a weapon loadout. None of this will be possible ... short of the camera tracking your fingers as they interact with analog sticks and buttons on a controller.

Even the Wii remote, as limiting as it feels a lot of times, has four buttons and a d-pad in immediate reach, and three more buttons for non-time-critical/system interactions. Natal has zero. Expect any games for it to be either simplified to the extreme or rely heavily on voice commands. Neither idea appeals to me at all.

I meant as an addition to the normal controller you could use Natal to do special actions like pointing at places for the AI to take cover or to attack, grenade throwing, those KZ2 style wheel turning interactions etc

And couldn't you use Natal to play RTSs as well? Are we sure it cannot detect pointing, or just pointing with fingers? So maybe pointing with the whole hand is possible?

With regards to image, the Move will definitely be seen as just an incremental improvement over the Wii Motion Plus, with Natal MS has the high ground as it is something not seen before.

This will give them an headstart and marketing advantage (as they were first) next generation as I think controllerless interfaces will be the natural evolution of motion controls and Sony/Nintendo will bring out their own take on 'Natal'

 

[patsu]

With regards to image, the Move will definitely be seen as just an incremental improvement over the Wii Motion Plus, with Natal MS has the high ground as it is something not seen before.

This will give them an headstart and marketing advantage (as they were first) next generation as I think controllerless interfaces will be the natural evolution of motion controls and Sony/Nintendo will bring out their own take on 'Natal'

You forgot EyeToy, and Dr. Marks' various experiments on camera-based projects (See above).

For marketing advantages, I agree controller-free gaming is more sexy than waggle though [size=-2](... but it has to be reliable in the wild)[/size]. MS is likely to at least complete one round of controller-free R&D and deployment before looking at extended natural interfaces with devices (e.g., gloves, split traditional controller).

 

[patsu]

Destructoid's response about the Socom 4 control scheme:
http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-10-zipper-does-move-control-right-socom-4-hands-on-166913.phtml

The PS Move controls are simple and satisfying. A swing of the wand moves the reticule and pans the over-the-shoulder camera. The large PS button in the center zooms the camera in for tight shots. The trigger underneath it fires weapons.

The digital stick on the sub-controller, which I held in my right hand, moves the character. One of its triggers brings up the squad tactics mode that allows you to order the AI around to locations.

With the PS Move, plotting these courses felt natural. Byrne echoed my gut reaction while I fiddled with the mode. A large third-person RTS reticule, almost like the grenade reticule in Gears of War, pops up allowing you to place characters with ease. The D-pad on the sub-controller allows for quick-swapping between the squads.

From behind the barrier I was able to stop and pop each foe with simple flicks of the digital stick and the brutal and smooth 1:1 accuracy of the PS Move. Byrne made special note of the smoothing during the session as I realized that the reticule wasn’t responding annoyingly to the slightest jitters of my hand.

“What we wanted to do was make sure that we had very high-fidelity movement in broad sweeps,” Byrne told me. “But it was imperative that we don’t have a lot of jitter when the reticule comes to rest. So Mike put in a lot of algorithms to make sure that when you need it to move it moves and when you want it to stop it stops.

That smoothing aspect is really good. It allows you to really get a bead on a guy but be very particular about where you hit them.”

How does CoD for Wii work ? How can Socom 4 offer an edge over DS3 if some say it felt like CoD* on Wii ?

 

[NeoTechni]

I disagree. Perhaps I should say I lack your optimism.

I agree. It's not that they haven't had enough time, it's that good interfaces simply can't be done on Wii/etc. It didn't take 3 years to learn how to code for the analog stick or dpad. Proper hardware would be easier.

I see Wii like handwriting recognition, only in 3d. And we still don't have 2d hwr properly.

Change for change's sake is not a good thing. Replacing A with a swing of a controller is not innovation, it's novelty.

 

[liolio]

How exactly do you mean? Flat with the bulb towards your body?

No actually what I meant was that unlike the wiimote you can't hold the "ps move " like a standard pad as you would hide the light bulb. But as I thank more about it's a bit of a non issue as holding the wiimote that way also limit the range of the wiimote capabilities (you can't aim/point).
Overall my point would have been clearer if I only said that a pretty consistent "ps move" limitation vs the wiimote is that it can't act like a pad. That's not negligible it limits its use in game like a platformer (just an exemple) as you would need to switch controler while playing (say that are mini games/etc.). Nintendo solution still has its merits imho.

 

[MfA]

No actually what I meant was that unlike the wiimote you can't hold the "ps move " like a standard pad as you would hide the light bulb.

I still don't see it, lets say holding it like a standard pad means holding it at 45 degree angle with the bulb pointing towards the screen. With the camera on top of the display I don't see how the bulb could be obscured.

 

[goonergaz]

at least they came up with sketch recognition which blew my mind. I am still waiting for a simple draw-your-own-Tank game.

Tell me about it. Even as a free tech demo - how cool would that be!?

 

[ShadowRunner]

No actually what I meant was that unlike the wiimote you can't hold the "ps move " like a standard pad as you would hide the light bulb. But as I thank more about it's a bit of a non issue as holding the wiimote that way also limit the range of the wiimote capabilities (you can't aim/point).
Overall my point would have been clearer if I only said that a pretty consistent "ps move" limitation vs the wiimote is that it can't act like a pad. That's not negligible it limits its use in game like a platformer (just an exemple) as you would need to switch controler while playing (say that are mini games/etc.). Nintendo solution still has its merits imho.

Its a bit of a non-issue realy. Firstly you already have a DS3 for games that use a pad, the only reason Wii controller is used as a pad is because a classic pad doesnt come with it as standard. Secondly there is no analogue/dpad on move so it would be pretty useless using it as a normal pad anyhow. Lastly, in terms of the bulb, its not needed to be in view to work it just means the absolute position will drift over time which may or may not be important depending on game. A Move without the bulb is essentially the same as a Wiimotion+ without view of the sensor bar. This could actually be cosidered a strong point for move rather than a negative as u suggest, the bulb is much less likely to be obscured from the cameras view than the sensor bar is to the wiimote.