That's why a lot of upfront work has to be done to define, prototype, test and tweak the concepts. WiiSports and WiiFit are not pure coincidences. "Everything" has to be just right. There are probably a lot of failed experiments and KIV'ed ideas behind them.
Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers
- Thread starter betan
- Start date
- Status
That's why a lot of upfront work has to be done to define, prototype, test and tweak the concepts. WiiSports and WiiFit are not pure coincidences. "Everything" has to be just right. There are probably a lot of failed experiments and KIV'ed ideas behind them.
Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
But, all those things could be done with a mouse. To me, it seems like you're saying it's not special, if something similar could be done with a mouse. You could use a mouse to draw and aim a bow, throw an object, carefully place 3D objects like buildings, etc. Do you see what I'm saying?
I agree. However, I doubt that people will give a new motion control system a real chance, since the Wii. I think the masses will feel like the Wii COULD do something similar, even if it can't. Therefore, they may try to wait to for Nintendo to offer an equivalent anyway. Whatever happens, it will be interesting.
True. I wonder if it was because of all the negative press and attitude towards the PS3 at the time
If Sony simply tries to be a "better mouse trap", then people will likely continue to buy the original (mouse trap) because it's proven and entrenched. Natal tries to escape that by positioning itself as "No controller". I like the controller-free media playback angle (Kid misplaced our Bravia remote again).
It is unclear what Sony wants right now. What exactly is the Gem hardware platform, and what is the lead product ? What (new/different) problem in the living room does it solve ?
A mouse allows you to perform those actions, but they are artificial and not a recreation of the true experience. So if a game wants you to swing a sword, there's a world of difference between moving a mouse over a desk and actually jabbing and swiping with your whole body. Likewise to swing a bat, there's a world of difference between pressing a button for a fraction of a second and swinging your whole arm as if for real. By contrast, the RTS game is just requiring the user to draw a ring around units, which is the same basic method whether with a mouse or arm. It'd be a little more intuitive perhaps with PSMotion, but it's not a new game experience that you can't get without motion.
I just think it was the wrong game. Card games attract a particular type of gamer and aren't as broad as EyeToy like minigames (which were old hat then).
Lucid_Dreamer
Veteran
Wouldn't that kind of depend on how the developers choose to implement the controls? I believe the E3 demo was just an example of HOW it could be done, or I'm I off-base with that thinking?
As far as swinging an arm goes as a sword, that was done in the early 2000's, right? There certainly isn't a world of difference between swinging an arm in 2D and swinging an arm in 3D, is there? The same would go for placing objects (2D vs. 3D). IMO, that's evolutionary and not revolutionary. I take it that you don't agree.
Some card games have been wildly popular. However, it didn't do as well as any of the old popular card games, did it (am I wrong about that)? I might agree with you about being the wrong game, though.
I'm only going by what I've seen. If that RTS has some novel motion control interface that actually benefits from motion input, and it isn't just a gimmick like Black & White's gesture interface, then I'll stand corrected. But I'm expecting the interface to basically be a PC's mouse interface freed from a desk and suitable for console, based on what's been said and shown so far.
There sure is! How do you track a lunge in 2D? 1:1 mapping is something that hasn't been done before this gen. I don't know how close Wii+ is getting, but I don't think you can get a true sword in your hand. That would be something completely new, a simulation of sword-fighting instead of the simplifications we've needed prior to accurate 3D tracking.
Well it's all evolutionary if you think about it, building up on previous ideas and experiences.
Let me put it another way. 3D motion offers 6 degrees of freedom in input. Mouse provides 2. To control a sword in 3D space requires 6 degrees of freedom. This is possible to control with the 3D interfaces, but not mouse. Whereas drawing a circle to select an area requires 2 degrees of freedom, which both mouse and a camera system can offer. Hence IMO the RTS isn't offering anything that hasn't been done before in the same manner and principle. It's just moving the 2 degrees of input to a different device. You can do the same with a thumbstick but it's awkward so avoided. Drawing a bow requires 1 degree. Aiming it requires 2. So three in total, where the mouse can only offer 2. Thus on a PC, the aiming is managed with the mouse and drawing is typically a matter of holding down the button until desired strength is reached, or splitting the action into two events where you aim first, then hold a button and draw the mouse back. This works but isn't very natural, likewise for baseball bat swings and such.
Motion should offer both easier access for game types already tried on simpler interfaces, or new game types that benefit from the greater number of simultaneous input options.
Geometry Wars on Natal...
http://www.destructoid.com/is-this-a-natal-powered-game-of-geometry-wars--158764.phtml
Neato. Like to see somebody get those same insane scores with just their hands. LOL
Tommy McClain
http://www.destructoid.com/is-this-a-natal-powered-game-of-geometry-wars--158764.phtml
Neato. Like to see somebody get those same insane scores with just their hands. LOL
Tommy McClain
As someone who has played quite a few EyeToy games I really doubt that this will be a niche where Natal will shine. I think distinct responsive buttons are superior to that kind of arcade shooters.
Sports games, "In the movie" type of games and tamagotchi games a la "Eyepet" will be where Natal will really shine in my opinion.
Sports games, "In the movie" type of games and tamagotchi games a la "Eyepet" will be where Natal will really shine in my opinion.
He's probably full of it, but the latest 4 guys 1up had David Ellis spreading a few rumors about Natal. His speculation was that to cut down costs, they'd be paring down Natal significantly (he even went so far as to say that the custom processor would be removed and the point cloud processing would be moved to the 360's CPU).
Though I don't put any faith in rumours, there's certainly some logic to this. The price we've been hearing is very mainstream. It's quite plausible that reductions would be made to hit the price-point. We'll have to wait and see.
The same guys that said last June that Natal was an add-on and a new & improved console too?
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174762
I understand the logic too, but if Microsoft doesn't exceed the expectations that they already set themselves it's going to fail. Maybe they are putting more stock into everybody's thoughts that it should be cheap. But they're going to do that at the expense of removing the custom processor? I don't like that idea at all. I always liked the idea of the camera of not using up existing CPU resources. Though, if the resources it uses is very small in the grand scheme, then I can understand why they might move it to the CPU. Still don't like it though.
Tommy McClain
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174762
I understand the logic too, but if Microsoft doesn't exceed the expectations that they already set themselves it's going to fail. Maybe they are putting more stock into everybody's thoughts that it should be cheap. But they're going to do that at the expense of removing the custom processor? I don't like that idea at all. I always liked the idea of the camera of not using up existing CPU resources. Though, if the resources it uses is very small in the grand scheme, then I can understand why they might move it to the CPU. Still don't like it though.
Tommy McClain
The CPU use may not be small, but given the types of games Natal seems to be targeting, I think they could pay the cost. Or putting it another way, what will the negative impact on games actually be? They'll still look good and play well, even if they aren't offering top-draw physics and graphics, and the target audience isn't looking for top-draw graphics and physics.
Launching it as the next 360 would make sense since they have already achieved a beachhead with the first few SKUs among hardcore gamers. Usually it's difficult, but I think Natal may provide enough differentiator and attraction to make the leap to casual gamers. e.g., use it for shopping measurement for eCommerce
For Sony, they have a small window to position themselves properly. I don't think Microsoft will let them be though. We may see more active MS marketing at the very beginning of 2010 since more of their titles will be ready compared to 2009.
If Sony wants to, the new controller can be a totally separate platform (e.g., games/applications can run on the stick alone without the TV using the right h/w plugin). Because of the plugin patent, it can also be seen as a h/w, s/w, protocol standards for interfacing with existing digital equipments (Lego MindStorm, electronic stuffed toys, musical instruments, ...) and sensors (Vitality sensors and trackers for babies and pets). Or just a video game controller.
Regardless of what they do, applications/games, user experience and marketing are still the critical success factors. They are getting better, but still fumbling in these areas, and not punchy/sharp enough to penetrate through all the noises (Some small, tactical efforts and missed opportunities). As an organization, I think Sony performs best when pushing an industry standard (a la Blu-ray). Perhaps, they should also consider working with well known consumer brands to push the concept.
EDIT: They may not want to push it via the usual standards route. It's too time consuming. An express route is needed, like how OpenCL was established relatively quickly.
For Sony, they have a small window to position themselves properly. I don't think Microsoft will let them be though. We may see more active MS marketing at the very beginning of 2010 since more of their titles will be ready compared to 2009.
If Sony wants to, the new controller can be a totally separate platform (e.g., games/applications can run on the stick alone without the TV using the right h/w plugin). Because of the plugin patent, it can also be seen as a h/w, s/w, protocol standards for interfacing with existing digital equipments (Lego MindStorm, electronic stuffed toys, musical instruments, ...) and sensors (Vitality sensors and trackers for babies and pets). Or just a video game controller.
Regardless of what they do, applications/games, user experience and marketing are still the critical success factors. They are getting better, but still fumbling in these areas, and not punchy/sharp enough to penetrate through all the noises (Some small, tactical efforts and missed opportunities). As an organization, I think Sony performs best when pushing an industry standard (a la Blu-ray). Perhaps, they should also consider working with well known consumer brands to push the concept.
EDIT: They may not want to push it via the usual standards route. It's too time consuming. An express route is needed, like how OpenCL was established relatively quickly.
These guys predictions often are about as good as flipping a coin, but that was part of the reasoning behind the supposed change: that for the Wii * crowd, you don't need to go too crazy graphics-wise.
I was (still am!) shopping for Christmas presents. Found the Force Trainer toy. Almost bought it:
http://www.nypost.com/video/?vxSite...el=NY Post&vxClipId=1458_538234&vxBitrate=300
Would be a cool UI for Heavy Rain and Playstation Home if it's more fine-grained. ^_^
Here's a more "committed" version:
http://gizmodo.com/5435511/thought+to+speech-machine-could-be-the-beginning-of-something-huge
http://www.nypost.com/video/?vxSite...el=NY Post&vxClipId=1458_538234&vxBitrate=300
Would be a cool UI for Heavy Rain and Playstation Home if it's more fine-grained. ^_^
Here's a more "committed" version:
http://gizmodo.com/5435511/thought+to+speech-machine-could-be-the-beginning-of-something-huge
you only 'think'!
That above demostration should be proof enuf why it wont work, even with the editing to the film you can spot flaws.
The problem with motion control here is even if it works 99.9%(*) of the time correctly this isnt good enuf. It must be 100% like a controller or else players will get pissed off. I guestered to jump + the thing ducked
(*)and based on all the natal videos so far, theyre a long way away from 99.9%
you only 'think'!
I am a humble person.
That above demostration should be proof enuf why it wont work, even with the editing to the film you can spot flaws.
The problem with motion control here is even if it works 99.9%(*) of the time correctly this isnt good enuf. It must be 100% like a controller or else players will get pissed off. I guestered to jump + the thing ducked
Well put, does anyone remember the sixaxis controlled dragons in Lair?
Out of curiosity, can you give some examples of titles and how Natal will work with them?
- Status
Similar threads
