Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Squilliam]

That is brilliant! Absolutely perfectly targeted towards the intended audience. And it doesn't need serious tech. Sony could have probably managed this with a Sixaxis, but they wouldn't think to try. Nintendo desrve their success because they are bigger picture thinkers, thinking about implementation as well as tech. Same as Apple.

I just watched that video 3 times in a row. Its possibly the most innovative use of the Wii mote I have seen and it simply looks like it would work without fail. It could be the dawning of a new product line for Nintendo... Wow oh wow!

So what do you think it could sell? I think it could clear 5 Million with no problems... and probably sell even more Wiis to parents in the process.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not a Nintendo product, but rather 3rd party ingenuity.

Is it? Well then, I guess Wii has woken up the world to alternative thinkings then! And the joy is this could easily be adapted for PS3 as it doesn't use the Wii's 3D positioning at all, only its accelerometer. I can't imagine Disney not releasing a Pooh-Bear version! It'll be down to Sony to convince devs there's a market for this variation on PS3 though, otherwise I can see devs targeting Wii with innovations and ignoring other equally viable platforms. Perhaps PSMotion will aid that?

Edit : A Natal version could possibly be even more interactive. It depends if they can adapt their tech to read the positions of a toy and ignore a person holding it. If so, you could directly control the arms and have them tracked. I doubt Natal is up to that though. Instead an XB360 version would track the user and maybe map the on-screen character to their actions (or avatar, but they're not as cuddly!), turning it more into a role-play. I really feel the addition of a cuddly interface essential to the appeal though, and you'd need a Natal motion system.

Couldn't IR reflectors be added as trackable hotspots for the cameras?

 

[Squilliam]

Couldn't IR reflectors be added as trackable hotspots for the cameras?

Are IR reflectors cute? In this case the form has to follow function for the target market.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Attached to the limbs of the cuddly toy.

 

[scently]

Is it? Well then, I guess Wii has woken up the world to alternative thinkings then! And the joy is this could easily be adapted for PS3 as it doesn't use the Wii's 3D positioning at all, only its accelerometer. I can't imagine Disney not releasing a Pooh-Bear version! It'll be down to Sony to convince devs there's a market for this variation on PS3 though, otherwise I can see devs targeting Wii with innovations and ignoring other equally viable platforms. Perhaps PSMotion will aid that?

Edit : A Natal version could possibly be even more interactive. It depends if they can adapt their tech to read the positions of a toy and ignore a person holding it. If so, you could directly control the arms and have them tracked. I doubt Natal is up to that though. Instead an XB360 version would track the user and maybe map the on-screen character to their actions (or avatar, but they're not as cuddly!), turning it more into a role-play. I really feel the addition of a cuddly interface essential to the appeal though, and you'd need a Natal motion system.

Couldn't IR reflectors be added as trackable hotspots for the cameras?

Natal can distinguish between active and passive characters, so I would say that it is up to it. And I really don't understand why people would think that MSFT would remove the processor inside the natal camera when they clearly haven't said so. It's like saying that sony might reduce the accuracy of GEM to save cost when they clearly haven't said so.
My point is if we are going to speculate, lets' speculate with what we know until otherwise stated.

 

[grandmaster]

what happened to natal?
all the recent demo are terrible, and latency looks unbearable :S

What recent demos are you referring to?

 

[fehu]

half life and geometry wars
the latency from gesture to game input make them look unplayable, a 180 from the "move a little the foot and the car accellerates" demo

 

[Toaddio]

And I really don't understand why people would think that MSFT would remove the processor inside the natal camera when they clearly haven't said so.

They haven't said so but there was a rumor about the subject. If people want to talk about it being a possibility because of the rumor, there's no harm in that. It wasn't something a poster made up just to make Natal look worse.

 

[AzBat]

half life and geometry wars
the latency from gesture to game input make them look unplayable, a 180 from the "move a little the foot and the car accellerates" demo

You must have inhuman perception in order to get that from a 15fps mobile phone video. Let's wait until we see it running in a better video before making those kind of observations.

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

Is it? Well then, I guess Wii has woken up the world to alternative thinkings then! And the joy is this could easily be adapted for PS3 as it doesn't use the Wii's 3D positioning at all, only its accelerometer. I can't imagine Disney not releasing a Pooh-Bear version! It'll be down to Sony to convince devs there's a market for this variation on PS3 though, otherwise I can see devs targeting Wii with innovations and ignoring other equally viable platforms. Perhaps PSMotion will aid that?

Edit : A Natal version could possibly be even more interactive. It depends if they can adapt their tech to read the positions of a toy and ignore a person holding it. If so, you could directly control the arms and have them tracked. I doubt Natal is up to that though. Instead an XB360 version would track the user and maybe map the on-screen character to their actions (or avatar, but they're not as cuddly!), turning it more into a role-play. I really feel the addition of a cuddly interface essential to the appeal though, and you'd need a Natal motion system.

Couldn't IR reflectors be added as trackable hotspots for the cameras?

Yes, it's a third party product. But looking at the basic Wiimote design and its "plugins" (Wii steering wheel, classical controller, pistol, ...), it is clear that they planned for such extensions. The stuffed toy is just a softer version of these gadgets. It is also very suitable for the cut-throad (cheap) toy market.

Sony's patent is more flexible/fine-grain in the sense that you can exchange sensors and processing units in the controller. While this means that the "combined" controller may be more wicked and integrated, it would also be more expensive to deploy.

If I were them, I'd look at off-screen usage and also reusable toy concept. We threw or gave away most of my son's infant toys because he outgrew them. I can see a pluggable Gem system "grow" with my kid -- from tracking his vitality/cries while he's still in his crib, to learning A-B-C/1-2-3, to a full blown motion sensing title, or outdoor game, or pet tracker. We used to have different gadgets to track his cries (remotely), measure his temperature, and teach him how to speak, etc. Some of these things are not cheap.

I think it would also play to the new VP of Sales' (Tim Bender) experiences since he used to work for LeapFrog and LifeScribe. The big problem is the controller needs to be very rugged and water/saliva proof. >_< At the moment, I like the "Companionship" idea of the controller too much to give it up. The mixed DS3 + Gem co-op scheme also suits the companionship angle but in a different dimension. I hope Gem is not the final name of the controller.

 

[_phil_]

And I really don't understand why people would think that MSFT would remove the processor inside the natal camera when they clearly haven't said so.

The fact they didn't say anything about the removal doesn't mean it didn't happened...They have to keep the costs low.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Natal can distinguish between active and passive characters, so I would say that it is up to it.

As I understand it, the point cloud is interpreted as having human proportions, which would mess up the tracking of something that wasn't broadly human shaped. eg. The WiiWaa creature hasn't got a head!

And I really don't understand why people would think that MSFT would remove the processor inside the natal camera when they clearly haven't said so.

they might, because it was a rumour that floated and we know lots of cases where products don't materialise exactly as first shown. Hence the caveat 'subject to change' appended onto all sorts of promotional material. We know the intention was a custom processor, but if on later evaluation MS saw the cost prohibitive to hit their target pricepoint, they would seriously consider axing the processor. Just as PS3 lost a second HDMI port, 50MHz of GPU, yadayada, and a zillion other devices and services have released with different specs to those first announced. We're not saying it will come with or without processor - only observing the likelihood of those options. In comparison, if the rumour was Natal had been upgraded to 240Hz true HD capture with a Cell processor powering it for $50, we'd be putting that rumour on the back burner. The way back burner.

 

[patsu]

What rumor are you talking about ?

 

[grandmaster]

The fact they didn't say anything about the removal doesn't mean it didn't happened...They have to keep the costs low.

The only evidence I can really come up with to support this theory is that announcement a while back that Natal couldn't be patched into existing games. Which struck me as odd as that's exactly what MS did with Burnout Paradise.

 

[Arwin]

Natal would have trouble with this kind of Applications because its depth perception is dependent on its infrared camera, which needs body heat to function properly. That means you'd have to put a heat source in the creature. However, much of the functionality should be manageable by just tracking the kid's upper body.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What rumor are you talking about ?

The 1up one mentioned two pages back.

Natal would have trouble with this kind of Applications because its depth perception is dependent on its infrared camera, which needs body heat to function properly.

It's a time-of-flight camera requiring the IR source to be located by the camera, so the time of the IR light from camera and back again can be measured. Thus the IR source is Natal and not inherent IR emmissions from the target, and will work with any non-IR absorbing object.

 

[obonicus]

The only evidence I can really come up with to support this theory is that announcement a while back that Natal couldn't be patched into existing games. Which struck me as odd as that's exactly what MS did with Burnout Paradise.

I don't think there's any evidence. I mentioned the 1up thread because once in a while they are right. They got the rumor of the PSP Go's look right, for instance. And, for all that I rag on games journalists, they have far more industry contacts than most of us do -- but I don't know if David Ellis heard something definite from a game dev buddy working on Natal or is passing on 3rd-hand info he heard from a QA guy who knows a QA guy who's working on a Natal project. The dependence of the games media on publishers and platform holders also would explain why this doesn't become actual 'news' -- you don't want to piss off the wrong people.

 

[bkilian]

The only evidence I can really come up with to support this theory is that announcement a while back that Natal couldn't be patched into existing games. Which struck me as odd as that's exactly what MS did with Burnout Paradise.

No, they changed the Burnout Paradise code. I think they mean that they can't use natal in a game without changing the game code.

 

[patsu]

The 1up one mentioned two pages back.

Ok I see it now. May make sense but I don't know if cost saving is the only reason. They get to revamp the SKU this fall, they may also use the saved money for something else.

 

[Prophecy2k]

No, they changed the Burnout Paradise code. I think they mean that they can't use natal in a game without changing the game code.

Perhaps the E3 demo used an early prototype of the Natal device with the custom processor inside it. Hence why it would have been relatively quick and easy for them to patch Burnout with it without making extensive changes to the game code.

They could have very recently decided to forgo the custom processor for cost reasons, given that the thing won't release till late this year, it's still very possible that much regarding the hardware specifications of the device aren't yet on lock.