Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Shifty Geezer]

I can only assume that with 5 years of not much to show for it, that Sony didn't push as hard for the Eye Toy to become a common control mechanism.

They clearly didn't! They should have bundled the cam and had a motion interface from day one as many of us EyeToy fans suggested and Sony even suggested themselves IIRC. They had the ball, dropped it, and left it for MS to collect. MS deserve every point they can get.

 

[patsu]

Given the recent development, all 3 will invest significantly more resources in natural interfaces now.


The 3DV system seems robust. The skeleton generation technology is sexy but seems unsuitable for fast action. The Milo stuff is just a concept video (no live demo). The demoes were not much different from what Sony showed 4 years ago.

They are still rather far away compared to the recent Wiimote Plus Tennis and Golf games. To catch up, MS will have to come up with a controller. Or if they really want to focus on a totally different experiences, then I think it will take an even longer time to polish the experience.

Sony has the benefits and hard learned lessons of productizing SIXAXIS and PS Eye over the years. They should be somewhere in between the two.


It's a game of marketing and software. MS is trying to catch up or take a lead by investing a lot in marketing now (e.g., appearing in consumer shows). Eventually, whoever can deliver the goods to the right people will stand out. At this early stage, the marketing dollars will just make people aware of the space more (but hey, MS has money to throw). It's still too early to tell what will happen next -- even if companies have their aspirations.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Given the recent development, all 3 will invest significantly more resources in natural interfaces now.


The 3DV system seems robust. The skeleton generation technology is sexy but seems unsuitable for fast action. The Milo stuff is just a concept video (no live demo). The demoes were not much different from what Sony showed 4 years ago.

They are still rather far away compared to the recent Wiimote Plus Tennis and Golf games. To catch up, MS will have to come up with a controller. Or if they really want to focus on a totally different experiences, then I think it will take an even longer time to polish the experience.

Sony has the benefits and hard learned lessons of productizing SIXAXIS and PS Eye over the years. They should be somewhere in between the two.


It's a game of marketing and software. MS is trying to catch up or take a lead by investing a lot in marketing now (e.g., appearing in consumer shows). Eventually, whoever can deliver the goods to the right people will stand out. At this early stage, the marketing dollars will just make people aware of the space more (but hey, MS has money to throw). It's still too early to tell what will happen next -- even if companies have their aspirations.

I certainly hope that's true Patsu. As with more console makers actively pushing the boundaries of motion control in games, the more likely we are to see more revolutionary concepts.

I just don't see the commitment from Sony that I see from MS and Nintendo. Although with MS completely focused upon it as a company, I imagine that next years E3 should give a much better picture of where all 3 companies are going.

Regards,
SB

 

[patsu]

I certainly hope that's true Patsu. As with more console makers actively pushing the boundaries of motion control in games, the more likely we are to see more revolutionary concepts.

You'll see more than these 3 vendors exploring opportunities in this area as long as people are throwing serious marketing dollars into it. Here's nVidia's effort courtesy of Kotaku:

It's not unlike that PSP augmented reality game, Invizimals. IMHO, it's the wrong use of augmented reality but what the heck (Not my $$$ !).

I just don't see the commitment from Sony that I see from MS and Nintendo. Although with MS completely focused upon it as a company, I imagine that next years E3 should give a much better picture of where all 3 companies are going.

But of course. Sony hasn't said much, but it has sunken in the most number of years in augmented reality and natural interface. They probably won't say much until early next year. Doesn't mean they are not committed. May just mean they are afraid of unnecessary leaks.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I just don't see the commitment from Sony that I see from MS and Nintendo.

Well, investment has been there but spread out somewhat. If you take all Sony's showings and turned them into one E3 presentation, it'd show a lot of 'commitment'. At this point MS have claimed to be turning all their first party developers to Natal, but at the same time they have far fewer devs than Sony, who couldn't make such a grandiose sounding claim. 'All' versus 'some' ...'all' wins That's not to say Sony's budgets or personnel counts are less. They might well be, we don't know, and at least there's some confidence MS are going to deliver because they've given a (vague) timeline, whereas Sony just show cool stuff every once in a while say and say 'yeah, one day'.

Still, in 6-12 months I guess we'll see exactly what Sony have been doing. MS have forced their hand and they'll have to act. Good!

 

[obonicus]

Yes, but did Sony basically push a company directive to all their in house/1st party devs to incorporate motion controls?

If MS are to be believed, they have basically told all their in house devs to incorprate it into projects currently being worked on and projects being planned.

Did they actually say that? We don't know much about Halo, but we haven't heard anything about Reach using Natal, which you'd think they'd mention, as both are for Fall 2010. We have no idea what titles we'll see from MS in Fall 2010, so it's hard to know, but all I really know about is Milo & Kate and, yes, most of Rare's output. Maybe Big Huge studios has something, maybe even a planned upgrade for the racer, but again, no word of it -- and I doubt they're big enough to actually push two projects at this point.

So there appears to be a much larger push on the part of MS to make this work.

There doesn't appear to me much of anything. I think MS is depending a lot more on 3rd parties -- maybe they hope Rare can deliver killer software. MS needs to crank out a killer app on the level of Wii Sports and so far all we have is the hope that they will -- we have no idea if MS' studios even have the capability to do something like that. It's not like Rare's games have been a tremendous casual pull -- and like someone else said on a different board, if MS is depending on Krome for its casual push, they're in trouble.

I can only assume that with 5 years of not much to show for it, that Sony didn't push as hard for the Eye Toy to become a common control mechanism.

That's true.

Granted it's only lipservice so far that MS is claiming they are putting ALL their resources into Natal, but it gives me far more optimism for it than Eye Toy + Wand. In other words, will Eye Toy + Wand just be more unfullfilled potential? Or will it become a far more commonplace control mechanism than Eye Toy?

We know very little about what their interface will really do. There's talk that it actually is capable of fully-replacing dualshock, in which case the wands could indeed become a standardized control-scheme much like the wiimote, but better-geared towards more complex games. As far as we know, there's a few Sony studios who could be working on this -- London already has been playing with the PSEye for EyePet, and we know about 3rd parties (from joker) already using this device. Actually, this break-apart controller is something that we started hearing reports about last year, as well as the goofy ball-topped dual controller, so it's possible that prototypes have been in dev hands much longer. Not that I'd expect 3rd parties to make a huge push for console games on the PS3, not with its current install-base.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Did they actually say that? We don't know much about Halo, but we haven't heard anything about Reach using Natal, which you'd think they'd mention, as both are for Fall 2010. We have no idea what titles we'll see from MS in Fall 2010, so it's hard to know, but all I really know about is Milo & Kate and, yes, most of Rare's output. Maybe Big Huge studios has something, maybe even a planned upgrade for the racer, but again, no word of it -- and I doubt they're big enough to actually push two projects at this point.

Well Bungie isn't a first party dev anymore, although they still retain close ties to MS. 2nd party?

And it's just pure speculation on my part, but it could be that many of the devs that MS have recently cut or allowed to go independant were devs that weren't interested in doing Natal focused projects.

I agree on the killer app(s). Shane Kim implies in many of his interviews that they are going for a multitude of Native Natal apps, and that they "can't rely on 3rd party developers for this." But they have been demoing the system to some select 3rd party devs 2 months prior to E3. And encouraging devs to think of applications for it.

I've lost the article but one of the early ones mentioned the MS rep presenting Natal said that MS has pushed all in house/first party devs to incorporate natal in current projects or plan future projects around Natal.

As I said, it's all a bit PR at this point. So it's just MS paying lipservice to Natal until something more substantial is shown. But it gives me more hope than Sony's current track record.

Regards,
SB

 

[liolio]

Actually I could see MS deliviring quiet some acceptable games as they will have to aim for various demographics. They may have a more properly done karaoke games, a dancing games (or blended with karaoke young girls like this), real kiddy games (a pack for the 3/4 years old till 6 that kind of tiny), society games (alal 1vs 100 in non online rendition, could be a pack), a wii sport/play rendition, a wii fit rendition, educational/reflection/brain entertainment games, a kart/easy driving game.
I don't think that these kind of games would take a long time to be developped as they are not likely to aim at high quality graphic.
They should also have the interface ready and more services available world wide and sell it along with the available services through dedicated ads.
It's not a in house effort neither a game that would catch non gaming person but they should land a deal about a Sim rendition.

 

[archie4oz]

How about a little flashback to 2000 with Dr. Richard Marks!

As I said, it's all a bit PR at this point. So it's just MS paying lipservice to Natal until something more substantial is shown. But it gives me more hope than Sony's current track record.

Does it? Shouldn't we wait until Microsofts's 3rd attempt?

A bunch more corny Eye Toy footage..

 

[infinity4]

I don't mind this but gaming is not supposed to be done like Natal for me. Button pressing is more fun and will always be. Instead of Natal there's real life experiences.

However, I hope it is kept limited because there are things that you wish you did with your finger, ie intricate controls.

 

[patsu]

I don't think that these kind of games would take a long time to be developed as they are not likely to aim at high quality graphic.

If Microsoft takes this attitude, then they will face an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony. In fact, the end result may feel shallow/generic or incompatible with Natal's actual technical performance. While casual titles may not need high quality graphics, they may demand a lot of time tuning and evolving the mechanics. Tracking natural behaviour of every body in a fun way may not be trivial.

Also, if you have not tried SingStar, you should give it a test run (with the speech recognition). Poke around the SingStar community and SingStore too. There are still room for improvement (e.g., use voice to search for songs in SingStore), but the overall experience is pretty pleasant. The only part I didn't like was the distribution of the (free) voice recognition "plug-in". It is listed in the SingStore. Took me a while to realize that. I was looking for it in the regular PS Store.

The entire game can be navigated by a 4 year old smoothly. The speech recognition works for the little boy 8 out of 10 times during the first try. So far, it's perfect recognition for my wife and me.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I don't mind this but gaming is not supposed to be done like Natal for me. Button pressing is more fun and will always be. Instead of Natal there's real life experiences.

However, I hope it is kept limited because there are things that you wish you did with your finger, ie intricate controls.

Look up TrackIR for some interesting uses of motion control as an enhancement to games using traditional controllers. If you go to the companies list of games, they even have demonstration movies.

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/03-enhanced-games/enhanced-games-all.html

And TrackIR is much simpler than Natal, being an IR camera that tracks 1-3 points (via IR reflectors that are worn) depending on the model.

All thanks to Archie for this, as I became an instant fan as soon as I saw this. Just wish they had more games supported that I play.

So, there's no need to replace controllers, and I'd argue that for some types of games, it's impossible to replace a good controller. While for other games it's entirely possible and compelling to do away entirely with any sort of physical controller.

I'd be extremely surprised and disappointed if MS wasn't aware of this type of potential for Natal.

Regards,
SB

 

[liolio]

If Microsoft takes this attitude, then they will face an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony. In fact, the end result may feel shallow/generic or incompatible with Natal's actual technical performance. While casual titles may not need high quality graphics, they may demand a lot of time tuning and evolving the mechanics. Tracking natural behaviour of every body in a fun way may not be trivial.

I strongly disagree, it would be trivial to make games good enough on the technical side for the constumer to notice a neat difference with what the wii is pushing.
In regard to the tracking mechanic, I would say either Natal works or doesn't if it works they will enjoy from Nintendo and Ubisoft experience and grow on this. Between the succes with casual goes really hand to hand with the marketing campaign size, the game doesn't have to be brilliant it won't be put under scrutiny /microscope and played not in a serious manner with friend.
I tried wiiplay and "stupid rabbits" (not sure of the english name) and most of the mini games are not good by any mean. I question the time Nintendo or ubi have put in those games, it's mostly simplistic ideas mixed together, most of the magic appear from the people playing not the game.

Also, if you have not tried SingStar, you should give it a test run (with the speech recognition). Poke around the SingStar community and SingStore too. There are still room for improvement (e.g., use voice to search for songs in SingStore), but the overall experience is pretty pleasant. The only part I didn't like was the distribution of the (free) voice recognition "plug-in". It is listed in the SingStore. Took me a while to realize that. I was looking for it in the regular PS Store.

The entire game can be navigated by a 4 year old smoothly. The speech recognition works for the little boy 8 out of 10 times during the first try. So far, it's perfect recognition for my wife and me.

I'm a poor singer and I don't question singstar quality, it doesn't mean that Ms sould pas tof that kind of game because singstar is good or Lips is not. Between adding dance could be a really good idea young/pre ado girls like to learn the song choregraphy.

 

[patsu]

I strongly disagree, it would be trivial to make games good enough on the technical side for the constumer to notice a neat difference with what the wii is pushing.
In regard to the tracking mechanic, I would say either Natal works or doesn't if it works they will enjoy from Nintendo and Ubisoft experience and grow on this. Between the succes with casual goes really hand to hand with the marketing campaign size, the game doesn't have to be brilliant it won't be put under scrutiny /microscope and played not in a serious manner with friend.

Visually yes. But in terms of feel, I am not so sure. By the time Natal is launched, the reference would be Wiimote Plus (and potentially Wiimote Plus bundled games), which is more precise and quicker than pure camera-based solutions. It is not so clear cut whether MS can do something on par with Wii on the interaction level by then.

I tried wiiplay and "stupid rabbits" (not sure of the english name) and most of the mini games are not good by any mean. I question the time Nintendo or ubi have put in those games, it's mostly simplistic ideas mixed together, most of the magic appear from the people playing not the game.

Perhaps, but they had to spend time tweaking the sensitivity and feel of the controller. In Wiimote Plus games, the angle and rotation of your arm seem to matter too (Someone was complaining his/her tennis swing doesn't work right if the arm is rotated the wrong way). If MS is content with old mini-games in 2010, then so be it. As I mentioned, it may be an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony's newest games if MS simply took a "quick mini games" mind set.

I'm a poor singer and I don't question singstar quality, it doesn't mean that Ms sould pas tof that kind of game because singstar is good or Lips is not. Between adding dance could be a really good idea young/pre ado girls like to learn the song choregraphy.

I didn't say MS should pass off Karaoke game. I am just saying there are things in SingStar that are done right and proper (Your statement "They may have a more properly done karaoke games" implied that existing karaoke games are not done properly. Is Lips that bad ?). Chereography could be fun but you don't need 3D tracking for players to do it. They can use the depth camera to swap out the background though.

In 2D sensing, the player has to leave the scene to capture and swap the background. Using the depth camera, they may be able to do it without the player leaving the scene. Would be cool if they can superimpose the player onto an existing music video.

 

[liolio]

Visually yes. But in terms of feel, I am not so sure. By the time Natal is launched, the reference would be Wiimote Plus, which is more precise and quicker than pure camera-based solutions. It is not so clear cut whether MS can do something on par with Wii on the interaction level by then.

For the kind of games I Played at my friend place I'm not sure that the motion plus has that much relevant, to me it looks like wii motion + adress some lacking more showing in "standard games".
Between there already +50millions Wii out without motion plus.

Perhaps, but they had to spend time tweaking the sensitivity and feel of the controller. In Wiimote Plus games, the angle and rotation of your arm seems to matter too (Someone was complaining his/her tennis swing doesn't work right if the arm is rotated the wrong way). If MS is content with old mini-games in 2010, then so be it. As I mentioned, it may be an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony's newest games if MS simply took a "quick mini games" mind set.

Once again I don't think that Nintendo succes comes from how good the input was. Wii has been succesful through pretty idiotic party games. Nintendo feels the need to improve their wii-mote because imho they felt like in the long run it would be important to satisfy their core audience and to have something good enough to satisfy "standard gamers".
The example about guitar / tennis are fucked up imho, I think that 1-0-1 motion tracking would completely break a tennis game no matter the sensitivity/precision of the device you use play tennis is hard. In house situation with no proper indication of ball hight/speed and no proper racket would land to most people send the ball in net or out of the court.
And mini games are needed, it would be crazy to try to catch casual audience without party games (which so far have always consist of mini games).

I didn't say MS should pass off Karaoke game. I am just saying there are things in SingStar that are done right and proper (Your statement "They may have a more properly done karaoke games" implied that existing karaoke games are not done properly. Is Lips that bad ?). Chereography could be fun but you don't need 3D tracking for players to do it. They can use the depth camera to swap out the background though.

I don't know actually if Lips is bad , for dance I was thinking through funny/costumisable avatars that why I think Natal could add something.

In 2D sensing, the player has to leave the scene to capture and swap the background. Using the depth camera, they may be able to do it without the player leaving the scene. Would be cool if they can superimpose the player onto an existing music video.

I wouldn't like it as it's always look lame (even done properly). In regard to the 2D part of Natal we're let in the dark so far, so it's tough to say what can or cannot be done. I think that nevertheless Ms has the software and a good enough camera is cheap, I'm willing to see what they will chose. I would be peaced off if they go with a really shitty camera as it would somehow cripple the system. I've some ideas about how 2D picture manipulation could go hand to hand the 3D leveraging weakness specific to each technology.
It would be deal a deal breaker for me.

 

[dobwal]

If Microsoft takes this attitude, then they will face an uphill battle against Nintendo and Sony. In fact, the end result may feel shallow/generic or incompatible with Natal's actual technical performance. While casual titles may not need high quality graphics, they may demand a lot of time tuning and evolving the mechanics. Tracking natural behaviour of every body in a fun way may not be trivial.

Also, if you have not tried SingStar, you should give it a test run (with the speech recognition). Poke around the SingStar community and SingStore too. There are still room for improvement (e.g., use voice to search for songs in SingStore), but the overall experience is pretty pleasant. The only part I didn't like was the distribution of the (free) voice recognition "plug-in". It is listed in the SingStore. Took me a while to realize that. I was looking for it in the regular PS Store.

The entire game can be navigated by a 4 year old smoothly. The speech recognition works for the little boy 8 out of 10 times during the first try. So far, it's perfect recognition for my wife and me.

I think MS could use Natal in a really novel way like making a Karoke game where part of the game involves scoring body language and facial expressions (which is mapped onto your avatar in game) during a song. Where the gameplay is more about performing versus just about singing.

I think I would actually enjoy watching people play (I personally have never had any desire to karoke myself because I can't sing a lick).

MS could encourage a social component of the game by allowing you to record your avatars' performances and put them online.

 

[patsu]

For the kind of games I Played at my friend place I'm not sure that the motion plus has that much relevant, to me it looks like wii motion + adress some lacking more showing in "standard games". Between there already +50millions Wii out without motion plus.

True but they may also be tired of the mini-games now. Retreading old ground may not work for MS. They will have to add their own twist to the collection.

Once again I don't think that Nintendo succes comes from how good the input was. Wii has been succesful through pretty idiotic party games. Nintendo feels the need to improve their wii-mote because imho they felt like in the long run it would be important to satisfy their core audience and to have something good enough to satisfy "standard gamers".
The example about guitar / tennis are fucked up imho, I think that 1-0-1 motion tracking would completely break a tennis game no matter the sensitivity/precision of the device you use play tennis is hard. In house situation with no proper indication of ball hight/speed and no proper racket would land to most people send the ball in net or out of the court.
And mini games are needed, it would be crazy to try to catch casual audience without party games (which so far have always consist of mini games).

Wiimote Plus provides more intuitive and accurate control. From what I hear, people seem to like the new Golf and Tennis games. They provide more subtle control over where the players want the ball to land. I played Wii Golf and couldn't figure out how to control the ball. The kid who played with me snapped the stick quickly with his wrist and the ball landed on the green. >_< While the games were still fun, it broke the immersion/model because after that I just didn't swing properly anymore ("Bah... it's just a toy").

Casuals are not into games, but they may be into their own golf swings. Peter Moore couldn't get them to upgrade from Wii, but it doesn't mean Nintendo can't.

 

[liolio]

True but they may also be tired of the mini-games now. Retreading old ground may not work for MS. They will have to add their own twist to the collection.

you're may be right but I feel like this kind of games is a requirement for that kind of super causual gaimg Ms is aiming at. There is also to consider it's Ms success in having "new" gamers experiencing this kind of entertainment (the ones who dismissed even the Wii), for them it won't "old". But actually MS strategy is interesting and risky I would like to see marketing studies about the likehood of persons repelled by video games and pad to try games Ms will push. It's quiet q bet

Wiimote Plus provides more intuitive and accurate control. From what I hear, people seem to like the new Golf and Tennis games. They provide more subtle control over where the players want the ball to land. I played Wii Golf and couldn't figure out how to control the ball. The kid who played with me snapped the stick quickly with his wrist and the ball landed on the green. >_< While the games were still fun, it broke the immersion/model because after that I just didn't swing properly anymore ("Bah... it's just a toy").

Casuals are not into games, but they may be into their own golf swings. Peter Moore couldn't get them to upgrade from Wii, but it doesn't mean Nintendo can't.

I can see what you mean in some party games I tried even without trying to mimmick something I found the Wii mote not reactive enough (for exemple in one game I've beat the rythme and I did terribly because I had to do bigger than expected movment for the input to be detected/validated by the game. But actually we will see what the WM+ brings on the table in this regard.
I agree with you on an earlier comment you made, it's tough to do something with "motion detection" (no matter the input natal/wm+/psmc). Actually I wonder if use such devises (with their differences) to mimmick the "reality", wether it's golf, tennis, baseball, guitar their will always significant exterio factors missing that will end making these devices feel as toys. It can't be a "virtual training" .
Obviously it's a successful approach for marketing and resulting sales but may not be the pertinent use of these devices. One on one motion mapping is overated and often it isn't a good match for some games that would look like obvious matches. For things as dance, training/streching, yoga (most stuff with in fact few interactions between the gamer and the exterior world virtual or not) are more valuable candidate. The real challenge for natal is what track to make the body an viable input (for me most interesting part of the wiimote is the pointing aiming functionnality).
But that's about doing good games and not how to sold the thing and make money.
For instance I would enjoy a flying game with natal, sonething like flower or stuff pretty zen or something more speed. they would track head and shoulders movment to do the trick.
I think it could be a great experience but I'm not sure that's experience easy to market or to push in the causual realm, it could be a very personal immersive experience way tougher to sell than whatever gimmick they may conme with.

 

[patsu]

you're may be right but I feel like this kind of games is a requirement for that kind of super causual gaimg Ms is aiming at. There is also to consider it's Ms success in having "new" gamers experiencing this kind of entertainment (the ones who dismissed even the Wii), for them it won't "old". But actually MS strategy is interesting and risky I would like to see marketing studies about the likehood of persons repelled by video games and pad to try games Ms will push. It's quiet q bet

Hah ! No need to bet or get lucky.

I think despite the hastily put-together demoes, MS already has a good grasp of what Natal can and cannot do. After all, the researchers have been facing the same old tech problems for years. The rest are marketing fluff. I think they will focus on:
* Edutainment software
* Apps for women and housewives
Just because women and kids are economically important but neglected by the gaming companies. I remember Microsoft also put some money with educational institutions to explore the use of gaming in learning and teaching.

Some of these efforts help to bring down the barriers in Asia. I know many of my Asian friends don't get a console because they think it will distract their kids. Party mini-games are not the only way to the non-gaming crowd. e.g., Nintendo's software are wellness applications in their core.

 

[liolio]

I agree with real kid (really younf one) housewife but I would say women as a whole( form the little girls, pre ado, young adult). That why I think Ms should land a deal about the Sim (or develop a match) and having interact nicely with live social networking services.