Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Silent_Buddha]

With respect to Natal, the origin of this discussion, the question is whether the 48 joints include fingers, and the consensus is they don't, that the hand is represented as a joint in the centre of the plam or somesuch, and the position of the fingers is irrelevant. I think the definition of 'finger recognition' meaning 'can we spot any fingers and what shape do they make; to be apt. Joint-level finger tracking is going to require some contact sensors I imagine, or some insane image recognition methods. I still can't think of any use for that level of tracking though. A virtual piano could be managed just with placement of a digit in an area of the FOV, for example. Perhaps the main use for true digit tracking would be in VR with correct vitrual object placement, graphic occlusion, and finger interaction with a creature?

Well in one of the articles, they asked the presenter about this. And he mentioned finger recognition could be possible (with regards to finger signs). Since it's still basically under developement there's always the possibility of very basic finger tracking. For relaying military style signs. But perhaps not enough for fine finger control.

Between now and release they could add/subract pretty much anything from the system. Although subtracting things to track could be problematic with dev kits being sent out to more devs.

Regards,
SB

 

[Crossbar]

Let us hope Milo will recognise if someone gives him the finger or makes tongue-in-cheek movements. The hard one will be to detect if someone is rolling his eyes, during conversation.

 

[V3]

Well in one of the articles, they asked the presenter about this. And he mentioned finger recognition could be possible (with regards to finger signs). Since it's still basically under developement there's always the possibility of very basic finger tracking. For relaying military style signs. But perhaps not enough for fine finger control.

Between now and release they could add/subract pretty much anything from the system. Although subtracting things to track could be problematic with dev kits being sent out to more devs.

Regards,
SB

I am pretty sure image recognition in sign language is quite advance now. It was pretty good a decade ago when I saw one.

 

[catisfit]

I think they can do significantly better than that considering silhouette boundary pixels carry much more information than a single (binary) bit, thanks to inherit low pass filtering.
For ideal lighting and coloring conditions you can get practically perfect readings.

I'll do some perfect renders which should illustrate my point. At 4m from the camera in perfect conditions, you need to accurately capture to 1/100th of a pixel to get a depth resolution of 1cm. At 5m the same depth resolution requires a sensitivity of 6/1000th of a pixel.

 

[Naboomagnoli]

It could get worse ! If the gestures can be tracked accurately and quickly, I am actually thinking about controlling 2 players at the same time in FIFA using my left and right hands. Just do a running man gesture on both hands, and have them pass a virtual ball between the 2 hands. I think I can do banana kick or bicycle kick using the fingers too (simulate leg movement).

I find the control scheme for sports games like MLB 2009 much much too hard (Too many button combination to remember). Don't know about FIFA.

If this ever happens I will kill again.

 

[patsu]

Heh heh, I haven't even talked about voice input yet . While MLB 2009 has difficult controls, it has pretty cool voice support (Getting the crowd to use/repeat your own cheers via a mic).


More Tretton PR stuff: http://www.cnbc.com/id/31204970

This time round, they seem to understand wide spread support for the controller is important.

The company will roll the device out next year. While Sony only focused on tech demos at its press conference, Tretton says gamers may be surprised when they see how many games will support the technology.

...

"[But] I think our [motion] controller can be used with every game that’s on the system now — and every game we’re working on.”

 

[patsu]

Took journalists and Nintendo long enough to publish more details about the Vitality sensor:
http://kotaku.com/5285232/how-the-wii-vitality-sensor-actually-works

Seems that the WVS works by measuring the flow of blood through the user's body, a small light sensor inside the device somehow able to measure that flow and determine various characteristics of your body's workings.

For instance, by watching your blood flow, the sensor can apparently determine when and how hard you're breathing in and out. One of the "games" demonstrated with the device - which may or may not make it into a "game" for the WVS - was a simple breathing exercise, as users timed their breathing to the tick/tock of a metronome.

 

[betan]

I'll do some perfect renders which should illustrate my point. At 4m from the camera in perfect conditions, you need to accurately capture to 1/100th of a pixel to get a depth resolution of 1cm. At 5m the same depth resolution requires a sensitivity of 6/1000th of a pixel.

I'm not sure what you are going to illustrate with perfect renders.
Do you think RGB camera can be used to measure fractional pixel distances or is it limited to discrete integer pixel distances?
If you are going to illustrate it with a render, you need massive AA (comparable to one in a physical camera).

 

[Iron Tiger]

Took journalists and Nintendo long enough to publish more details about the Vitality sensor:
http://kotaku.com/5285232/how-the-wii-vitality-sensor-actually-works

Wow, that sounds like seconds of fun!

 

[patsu]

The breathing exercise ?

Wii is also selling to the wellness crowd. As long as it's useful to them and mildy entertaining, people may bite. PS3 and 360 are facing tough gamer crowd with highly competitive and similar products, they will have a more difficult time accepting the concept.

I'm actually curious what my son's readings are like after some Wii games. Seniors and pregnant women might be wondering about their own stats too.

The V. sensor box also shows one hand plugged into the sensor, while the other holding on to the Wiimote. I'd imagine a horror game based on your real vitality may work. Until Nintendo demoes their VooDoo applications, we won't know how many seconds or hours the concept will last.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It certainly appears to have potential to actually monitor physical reactions to either what is happening in game (horror/action/empathic game for example) or what the game is prompting you to do (exercise for example).

Regards,
SB

 

[AzBat]

Took journalists and Nintendo long enough to publish more details about the Vitality sensor:
http://kotaku.com/5285232/how-the-wii-vitality-sensor-actually-works

Nothing special tech wise. Seen these things for years in hospitals. The price just got low enough where they can easily be used in different markets. Not too surprised to see them show up in games. Just intrigued that it was Nintendo first.

Tommy McClain

 

[patsu]

For Nintendo, it has never been about the technology. Their applications/games always come first. Wii is not even HD, and they still use buttons.

The concept is not new either: http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/06/nintendo-vitality-sensor/
Just like motion sensing in Wiimote was not new, but they made it work and popularized it.

 

[wco81]

Forget about theory for a sec.

Tiger Woods 10 and Grand Slam Tennis both came out in the last day or two with Motion Plus support.

So is it the "1:1" support you expected?

 

[patsu]

Try them out and let us know ! At the end of the day, the developers have to put everything together "properly".

 

[thatdude90210]

I've been playing with Motion Plus for a couple of hours with both Grand Slam tennis and Tiger Woods 10. Motion plus works very well in Tiger Woods. The best evidence of the 1:1 motion is in disc golf. When you pick up a disc, the disc follows exactly what your hand does, and the flight reflects exactly how you threw and released the disc.

And motion plus made the short and medium game in golf much more playable than before. I had TW 07 and never bought 08 or 09 because it was so difficult to gauge the swing for anything under 80%, not to mention the false positive swings that made 07 sometimes frustrating. The new TW 10 tracks the back-swing and the follow-though with M+ so it's much easier to get a consistent swing.

TW is definitely a better game with M+. There's a thread on GAF that's full of people raving about it.

For me, the jury is still out on GS tennis. I only played a couple of quick matches with M+ so I haven't found the sweet spot in the control yet. I played last night before I got M+ and the ball placement is just so/so. Nowhere near as good as Wiisports tennis. With M+, ball placement is much better. You can place the ball where you want, most of the time. But the game is a little glitchy. It will sometimes have you in the wrong position just because you're holding the remote a certain way. And you can't just expect to flick the wrist and have your player take a full swing. I'm going to have to unlearn some habits from Wiisports tennis.

 

[patsu]

The more people try it, the better. The developers will learn to harness the technologies after enough feedback and tweaks.

Tiger Woods 10 GAF thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364537

EA Grand Slam Tennis GAF thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353656

 

[catisfit]

I'm not sure what you are going to illustrate with perfect renders.
Do you think RGB camera can be used to measure fractional pixel distances or is it limited to discrete integer pixel distances?
If you are going to illustrate it with a render, you need massive AA (comparable to one in a physical camera).

It's not about fractional pixel distances, it's about accuracy at tiny fractional pixel distances.

 

[Refreshment]

Since game controllers started to adopt a more ergonomic and handle like design, i always thought developers should find a way to measure grip or pressure with the controller. Does anyone know of similar applications in other fields?

It certainly appears to have potential to actually monitor physical reactions to either what is happening in game (horror/action/empathic game for example) or what the game is prompting you to do (exercise for example).
Regards,
SB

Well i agree that there could be some potential interesting uses, yet i think the device is limited in its applications cause of the way Nintendo designed it. You cant use the full Wii controller configuration and if you could, one of your fingers its obstructed by it. The previous one was attached to the ear. I think the 64 DD one was a wristband, if i remember correctly, wich i think was more practical, but i have no idea how effective .

Ha ha, liolio is right !

Some interesting images from Titanio again:
http://i42.tinypic.com/eb4oas.jpg
(http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16237604&postcount=1503)

http://i41.tinypic.com/2l8zxxi.jpg (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16237641&postcount=1505)

Well 2 like the first one would do the work. Why the sphere is absent in those pictures?

I could tie the ribbons on the string to detect vibration instead of tracking the hand motion.

Some time ago i saw a glove that simulated the interaction with objects in a VR environment with air pressure cams for each individual finger.

I've been playing with Motion Plus for a couple of hours with both Grand Slam tennis and Tiger Woods 10. Motion plus works very well in Tiger Woods. The best evidence of the 1:1 motion is in disc golf. When you pick up a disc, the disc follows exactly what your hand does, and the flight reflects exactly how you threw and released the disc.

Is there a need to constantly recalibrate the M+ by pointing at the screen? I think thats what i saw in the Wii Sports Resort sword demo, a bit bothersome.

Speaking of the Nintendo solution, now with M+ out, they should try to expand the controller by redesigning the Nunchuk. I think they felt short there, since theres a lot of stuff they could've added without making its use more complex.

 

[patsu]

Well 2 like the first one would do the work. Why the sphere is absent in those pictures?

I believe one of the patents they filed uses other geometric shape to track the controller (e.g., 4 LED lights forming a rectangle). Incidentally, SIXAXIS/DS3 has 4 LED lights to indicate controller number (but aligned in one row instead of a rectangle).