Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[one]

Okay. But all along, I've never had a problem with games being made for motion controls. I have no problem with some people enjoying them. My problem is that, until this E3, a whole bunch of people who had absolutely no interest in Wii Sports are now advocating that sort of game.

Watching the Sony demo, I was more impressed by AR (augmented reality) stuff than traditional-FPS/RTS-with-motion-control. I didn't like EyeToy games in which you are shown on a TV screen, but the new controller can make games like The Eye of Judgment less awkward and more believable. After ARToolKit, currently AR is one of the hot topics in the Japanese hobby coding scene.

Anyone know if Sony sent out SDK's to developers? If not did they mention when they plan to?

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1300813&postcount=96
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1301210&postcount=103

 

[zRifle1z]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1300813&postcount=96
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1301210&postcount=103

Thanks One. It will be interesting to see how such games are made for both Sony and MS. I've been looking forward to motion control, but was never impressed enough to purchase the Wii.

 

[Refreshment]

Wish i had the chance to participate i this discussion earlier.
Some thoughts:

-Generally the talk of the show is "Natal", yet it seems that Sony's showed, overall, a more "practical application". Makes me think that once again , marketing just scored another big victory.

-Natal technology is indeed impressive yet i share the thought that you still need a physical device with buttons. The response to this is that: "MS can eventually do this". In that case then, MS should have presented or hinted at this possibility instead of repeatedly proclaiming the "no buttons" mantra.

-Following on the "no buttons" chimera, the tag line seems to be the potential it has to attract even more people into gaming. Well i'll say its not that fundamentally different than shaping your input device like a remote controller and present your interface like tv channels.

-What happened to that segmented controller? How impractical would be to take a button for button "dual shock equivalent" and fuse it with the motion technology demoed? That way you could have a one complete input solution that is backward compatible with the previous one to guaranteed a better assimilation of the tech. Possibly pricey, but you have Nintendo proposing 80 for a complete controller.

 

[rabidrabbit]

If we look into the future, where will these technologies evolve, if the fundamentals stay the same?
Natal will obviously get a true HD camera and faster IR based 3D recognition with better resolution, but what else? Some peripheral with buttons, maybe?
Sony might make a "glove" based system, with led lights in fingertips (here we go back to the "Minority Report" interface) and still use some buttons in the gloves themselves.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I expect everyone to use 3D cameras in the future, with a controller device too, a remote and/or some spilt thumbstick/button thing. You need all these in combination to enable every wanted interface possibility. I can't see gloves getting anywhere. Too hot, smelly, uncomfortable (one size doesn't fit all!), awkward, and what-have-you. Optical finger recognition will solve all that.

 

[patsu]

Okay. But all along, I've never had a problem with games being made for motion controls. I have no problem with some people enjoying them. My problem is that, until this E3, a whole bunch of people who had absolutely no interest in Wii Sports are now advocating that sort of game.

What does the Vitality sensor sense ? I am curious in Nintendo's overall plan and focus. The V. sensor is only a hint of where they are going.

Anyone know if Sony sent out SDK's to developers? If not did they mention when they plan to?

There is also a link to a ListenUp podcast with Insomniac's feedback on the new controller:
http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3?http://podcast.the1upnetwork.com/flat/1UPYours/LUP060509.mp3

It's supposed to be very precise and the developer knows exactly where and what the player is doing with the controller (I haven't listened to it yet)

I expect everyone to use 3D cameras in the future, with a controller device too, a remote and/or some spilt thumbstick/button thing. You need all these in combination to enable every wanted interface possibility. I can't see gloves getting anywhere. Too hot, smelly, uncomfortable (one size doesn't fit all!), awkward, and what-have-you. Optical finger recognition will solve all that.

so true ! Besides finger recognition using HD and depth sensing camera (2D and 3D), I'm more thinking about a wrist band width finger extensions at the back of your hands. Once they go HD camera, it may (or may not) introduce even more lag. So a physical sensor could be useful.

 

[thatdude90210]

Ok, this poster at GAF (bottom of post) showed what I meant by pointer function vs motion control all the time. It's so much quicker to just move the pointer around than waving a controller all over. It's quicker, and no less precise. With the Wii method, you can have pointer when you want, motion when you want.

And if you want to see precision, go to that youtube video linked near that gif. Sure, not everyone have that kind of reflexes, but it shows what can be done in the right hands.

 

[patsu]

As I understand, when pointing at the screen, the new PS3 controller detects tilt (i.e.,wrist action) using some LED mechanism hidden inside the ball. Its function should be on par with Wii here even though it may not have a gyroscope inside (probably for cost reason). They need the location and tilt angle to superimpose virtual objects with the user's hands accurately anyway.

IMHO, the best interface for this is still the mouse. Pointing in mid-air can be torturous. Wiimote Plus is certainly very flexible and accurate though.

EDIT: Regardless of the technology, the best thing about this E3 is finally, motion sensing and Wii-like games are making head way into core gamers' mind. I think that is real and huge progress right there.

After ARToolKit, currently AR is one of the hot topics in the Japanese hobby coding scene.

I missed this last time round. That's encouraging. I think Sony and MS should pitch their user-generated content here:
* Allow players to create simple AR applications/games like in LittleBigPlanet
* Allow developers to write AR games like in XNA (and ha ha, PSP Homebrew). The PS3 Linux should have access to these technologies too.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Okay. But all along, I've never had a problem with games being made for motion controls. I have no problem with some people enjoying them. My problem is that, until this E3, a whole bunch of people who had absolutely no interest in Wii Sports are now advocating that sort of game.

Ah, well I can see your frustration from that point of view. I've never really noticed it myself as I've gone on at length with friends of mine about the fun and benefits of things like Wii Play and Wii Fit. And at the same time lack of convincing games from 3rd parties that exploit the possibilities inherent in the system.

Regards,
SB

 

[Naboomagnoli]

Ok, this poster at GAF (bottom of post) showed what I meant by pointer function vs motion control all the time. It's so much quicker to just move the pointer around than waving a controller all over. It's quicker, and no less precise. With the Wii method, you can have pointer when you want, motion when you want.

And if you want to see precision, go to that youtube video linked near that gif. Sure, not everyone have that kind of reflexes, but it shows what can be done in the right hands.

Yup. My last post on that still applies though. If you have 1:1 data going into the system, what you do with that (e.g. filtering out the tinier involuntary movements to avoid jitteriness, decreasing the amount of physical movement required to point from bottom left to top right etc) is still entirely up to you.

 

[patsu]

Peter Dille talked a wee bit more about the new controller:
http://kotaku.com/5283062/sony-explains-unnamed-new-ps3-motion-controller-a-little-more

First, I asked Dille, did I miss a name for this thing?

"You didn't miss it," Dille said. "There is none yet. We were careful to say that Rick Marks is the engineer. We're announcing the technology, not the product or game. He also wanted people to know the form factor of the wand is a prototype. I think it is representative of what the product will include. In other words, it will have buttons. It will have the ability to have a trigger if you're having that style of game. The button in the archery demo was key to how far you're pulling [the wand] back. And the light is detecting that. So the other key is the light on the tip of the wand. So no product name, no pricing, no specifics on the product aspect."

What Dille did confirm is that the camera used in the demo was a regular PlayStation Eye camera.

...

 

[Nesh]

I can't see gloves getting anywhere. Too hot, smelly, uncomfortable (one size doesn't fit all!), awkward, and what-have-you. Optical finger recognition will solve all that.

They dont have to be full worn gloves. Remember the old Sony patent?

It was only consisted of parts on which your fingers could lay on.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Aren't Microsoft limiting the Natal userbase to families who don't have a coffee table between the sofa and TV?
I think majority of living rooms do have such a table, which then would have to be removed every time someone wants to play with Natal.
Sounds like a small deal to just put the table on the side during playing, but I know I would not be willing to move my approximately 1,5m x 0,6m size table that is made of thick wood and not very light, every time I boot up Natal. Now most tables might not be so big and heavy, but I do think something like that actually affects if the device is left gathering dust after the novelty wears off.

Then again, Rock Band drum kit is not that living room friendly either, but nor is it as much aimed at the core casual market.

 

[rabidrabbit]

They dont have to be full worn gloves. Remember the old Sony patent?

It was only consisted of parts on which your fingers could lay on.

Yep, that's what was on my mind too.
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/13250/Sony-Patents-WiimoteKiller-Game-Controller/
http://www.unwiredview.com/2007/04/13/vr-controller-for-your-ps3/

I think tactile feedback is still important in many games and applications. Kind of unny to see Microsoft willing to abandon it completely after talks of the importance of rumble tech when SIXAXIS did not have it

 

[whome0]

Peter Dille talked a wee bit more about the new controller:
http://kotaku.com/5283062/sony-explains-unnamed-new-ps3-motion-controller-a-little-more
...It will have the ability to have a trigger if you're having that style of game. The button in the archery demo was key to how far you're pulling [the wand] back. And the light is detecting that. So the other key is the light on the tip of the wand....

So, with my limited english did I get this right. Emulating an archery users press and keep a button down, pull second wand backward to load power, release a button to shoot an arrow. Sounds fair and intuitive controls.

Only reservation is how good PS3Eye camera is detecting lightbulps in an every day living room environments, ridicilously colorful t-shirts, bad interior furnitures and wall paintings.

Current PS3Eye cannot detect an infrared if lightbulps were to emit IR. Some have said ultrasound tricks but don't think its here.

 

[Arwin]

@whome0: on the contrary, the ultrasound is the most important part. Read the patents, or check the topics in the technology forum.

 

[patsu]

Sony's tech demoes should be using the ultrasonic controller technology (complemented by PS Eye + color LED). A pure SD camera-based solution may not be able to track the player's movement so quickly and so accurately. Not to mention in the archer demo, one hand is behind (obscured by) the other. An optical solution will require some trickery to pin point the exact location of both hands.

 

[liolio]

@whome0: on the contrary, the ultrasound is the most important part. Read the patents, or check the topics in the technology forum.

Sony has said nothing so far about that even if it's likely as they have patent in this regard.
We basically know really few for sure about Ms and Sony tech choices so far, it kind of makes guess work interesting.

 

[patsu]

We were told the controller is very accurate though. A pure camera solution won't be sufficient. While Sony has not acknowledged it, the patent drawing (ultrasonic and bulb), description and performance characteristics fit the controller we saw.

Here's an interview with Shuhei about the new controlle, Project Natal and other E3 news:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=216937

Was the motion controller evangelised to your developers prior to its announcement?

In the past, Sony Computer Entertainment was a little bit hardware-oriented. Technology was invented in Japan and given to developers like us when that was done. But with this controller, the R&D for the camera technology has continued since EyeToy on PS2. When we decided to continue it with a motion controller on PS3, we involved representatives from the game and software research teams. So it was really a collaborative effort. It's not like we're given some secret new technology from Tokyo and have to figure out what to do.

Which studios are using it now, and what kinds of experiences can we expect?

The first thing we thought about was how to make the interface seamless and easy for consumers. That's what EyeToy achieved when we debuted on PS2, but it was a bit limited next to what you can do with this controller. We're trying to make it so precise that what you do is exactly what get in the game. You don't have to learn any specific moves; how you move already is how you move in the game. But as we learn to use this tech, more and more ideas are coming from studios that would be great to use in an adventure-type experience, or a firstperson shooter. So we're not limiting ourselves to certain types of audience or experience.

Might the controller be used alongside the DualShock in some games?

Technically, it's totally doable. We're working with the group in Tokyo to make such things simple and understandable.

How does this compare to what Microsoft is proposing with Natal?

I saw the [Natal] demonstration and it's a very sweet video; it's more futuristic and I felt like I was watching some Consumer Electronics Show event. What I think they're trying to do is continue on the path we began with EyeToy and PlayStation Eye, removing the barrier between consumers and games. That's very natural when it comes to what you have to learn. However, we know from working with camera technology for a long time that just using the camera without precisely detecting what the consumer wants to do, with buttons and triggers, is quite difficult, especially when bringing it into the game context. So while it's very interesting, what we're providing with our technology is very different.

 

[catisfit]

I can't see gloves getting anywhere. Too hot, smelly, uncomfortable (one size doesn't fit all!), awkward, and what-have-you. Optical finger recognition will solve all that.

True, optical finger recognition will solve the problems with gloves (hot, smelly, uncomfortable), while gloves solve the problems with optical finger recognition (actually being able to detect the position of the fingers in all cases) :smile:

If you really want finger recognition (and I can't see a reason why you would), you need to use gloves. Optical finger recognition from a single PoV will always have situations where it cannot possibly work, the easiest example being occlusion, whether it be putting hands behind your back or holding an object, or simply pointing your arm or fingers away from the camera. Even as simple an action as putting your fingers together or making a fist causes problems for optical finger recognition.

This is without even considering practical issues with optical techniques, such as resolution (or lack of it) and lag.