Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[obonicus]

The game does not need to be a one to one simulation with real life to be fun, I mean even Fight Night seems slow and stiff compared to real boxing. The very nature of this technology requires you to be active, moving your limbs and torso, not sitting down. Obviously there are some concerns as to how accurate the device can to be to pull off high precision FPS, head tracking, or as some suggested finger movement, but I believe those features are secondary to the devices real design, which is to attract people who play Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc without seeming like its just a rip-off.

Okay, so now we're back to my earlier argument. We don't care about Wii Sports. Even the good games in Wii Sports, like bowling, we couldn't care less about. That's okay, naturally, it's not for us. Why do we suddenly care when suddenly we have a different form of waggle?

That's my problem when it comes to motion controls: other than a fairly narrow range of games, anything excessively skill-based will have to be hobbled to match our couch-addled physiques. And on the opposite spectrum, we just were never interested in extremely dumbed down experiences.

 

[Scott_Arm]

That's my problem when it comes to motion controls: other than a fairly narrow range of games, anything excessively skill-based will have to be hobbled to match our couch-addled physiques. And on the opposite spectrum, we just were never interested in extremely dumbed down experiences.

I don't understand that argument at all. If you play for example a boxing game, and the game is challenging and entertaining, what does it matter if you are not playing at the level of a professional athlete? How is it dumbing down the experience?

 

[Asher]

That's pretty good, should work well for RTS games.

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.

The Wiimote can do simple pointer (used like a laser pointer), simple motion (waggle), buttons and joystick with the nunchuck, and 1:1 motion with motion plus. But it adds up to an $80 full controller.

The Wii does not have a pointer at all. That's not what the IR is used for. No game systems has a "laser pointer" like system. They can detect orientation and then use accelerometers to use relative motions. It's far more like a trackball than a pointer. For most people they think it behaves like a pointer, but it really doesn't. It actually drives me crazy on the Wii -- I'm not sure if my brain isn't wired like other people's but I find it difficult to point at things with the Wii. I over/undershoot constantly.

 

[manux]

I don't understand that argument at all. If you play for example a boxing game, and the game is challenging and entertaining, what does it matter if you are not playing at the level of a professional athlete? How is it dumbing down the experience?

Why would I play boxing with a natal when I can go and do it in real life? I think that was the point obonicus had(the other end of spectrum). I'm relatively deep into practicing kickboxing and I wouldn't be interested in waggle/camera boxing with a console. On the other hand fight night round 4 raises big interest in me, that I can do from couch when I'm tired from real practice. Those who don't do real sports might not actually have physical capability to do waggle/camera thingies and games need to be toned way down. What's the good middle ground that interests both couch potatoes and those who are into sports in real life too?

 

[thatdude90210]

In the same video, from 5:09, they demonstrated drawing/writing with sub-millimeter accuracy. Can you write with a mouse?

I don't know about sub millimeter accuracy, but writing is a simple task with a mouse.
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/600/simple1.jpg

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why would I play boxing with a natal when I can go and do it in real life?

Because you don't have to pay to go out and box, don't have the overhead of travel, and most importantly, don't get hurt! That's a principle appeal of computer games - doing things that you wouldn't do in real life, whether running around a battlefield with gay abandon, mercilessly blowing up civilians or feeding them to your pet troll, or standing toe-to-toe with a super-heavyweight boxer.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.

I don't understand. It works like the Wii, 'pointing' on the screen. Keep the device still and the pointer stays on the spot.

 

[manux]

Because you don't have to pay to go out and box, don't have the overhead of travel, and most importantly, don't get hurt! That's a principle appeal of computer games - doing things that you wouldn't do in real life, whether running around a battlefield with gay abandon, mercilessly blowing up civilians or feeding them to your pet troll, or standing toe-to-toe with a super-heavyweight boxer.

But actually I do that several times a week just for kickboxing + other sports on top of that. I have bruises occasionally and love it all the time...

I think there is probably a good middle ground somewhere that both couch potatoes and athletes can enjoy. Though finding the balance could be tricky. Make it too easy on physical/skill side and hobbyists get nothing of it, make it too demanding and couch potatoes won't bother with it because it makes them sweat too much and perhaps the learning curve is to steep.

On the other hand I'm, fairly certain I'm not in the main audience for waggle/motion controllers as I far prefer to try to do the real thing and hence my point of view probably is too cynical. Consoles are more the stuff I do after I have gotten physically tired in real activities. Hence I far prefer the traditional control instead. Though I have to say that guitar hero/rockband is the exception that I like a lot.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think there is probably a good middle ground somewhere that both couch potatoes and athletes can enjoy. Though finding the balance could be tricky. Make it too easy on physical/skill side and hobbyists get nothing of it, make it too demanding and couch potatoes won't bother with it because it makes them sweat too much and perhaps the learning curve is to steep.

That's what difficulty levels are for.

 

[manux]

That's what difficulty levels are for.

But how do you implement the difficulty level for boxing where you box against another person? Or perhaps boxing is just the thing that is difficult to make and there are other waggly motion games better suited for gimmick controllers.

You cannot make the other guy any slower or smaller(or can you?). I just cannot figure out a system that would even the playfield without making it boring to either side of the audience. Against computer I can see how the difficulty could be set as the opponent can be made faster, better at moving, blocking, etc.

 

[Scott_Arm]

But how do you implement the difficulty level for boxing where you box against another person? Or perhaps boxing is just the thing that is difficult to make and there are other waggly motion games better suited for gimmick controllers.

You cannot make the other guy any slower or smaller(or can you?). I just cannot figure out a system that would even the playfield without making it boring to either side of the audience. Against computer I can see how the difficulty could be set as the opponent can be made faster, better at moving, blocking, etc.

Playing online is never an even battlefield. With a standard gamepad, some people just have better timing, better reflexes, better internet connections, better televisions, more experience with the game etc. Some people just have better vision for tracking multiple objects. I don't think it'd be a big deal to have a more physical based game online. You could rank people as they play and have some kind of match making around that, or lobbies for casual and competitive. There's a lot of ways to help people find people of relatively the same skill level.

CPU would be easy. You just have to slow the pace of the game and shorten the game for people that aren't as coordinated or aren't in as good physical condition.

 

[manux]

Playing online is never an even battlefield. With a standard gamepad, some people just have better timing, better reflexes, better internet connections, better televisions, more experience with the game etc. Some people just have better vision for tracking multiple objects. I don't think it'd be a big deal to have a more physical based game online. You could rank people as they play and have some kind of match making around that, or lobbies for casual and competitive. There's a lot of ways to help people find people of relatively the same skill level.

CPU would be easy. You just have to slow the pace of the game and shorten the game for people that aren't as coordinated or aren't in as good physical condition.

Fair enough for the online match making and ranking. Though I was thinking more of a social event between friends located in same room and how to even out the skill differences to make it interesting for everybody.

 

[patsu]

I guess you'd have to ask her to take her dress off.

SOLD !

In the same video, from 5:09, they demonstrated drawing/writing with sub-millimeter accuracy. Can you write with a mouse?

This is what I was thinking. The Logitech 3D mouse is supposed to behave like a regular mouse when you slide it on the desk (or coffee table). It will become a Wiimote when you lift it up in the air. This is what I want (talked about this in one of my posts last year). For extended use, I need a surface to work/rest on.

To be precise, I want a stylus when operating in 2D mode, and a Wiimote in 3D mode. Once in pen mode, the drawing input will be even simpler (Complement the camera recognition, and can allow people to trace existing artwork). If they make the stylus into a mouse, it's fine too I guess (like using mouse to play FPS). Is the uber sensitive ultrasonic controller precise enough compared to gaming mouse ?

... and in outdoor, also behave like Wiimote (but totally in relative positioning so I don't have to point it to a screen under the Sun).


Natal would be cool for the 3D imaging... like an in-movie experience mentioned by someone above. I believe MS will need to implement *a lot* more software on top to abstract higher level use cases though (e.g., Giving more semantics to raw skeleton motion, such as gesture and trigger mechanics)

 

[obonicus]

I don't understand that argument at all. If you play for example a boxing game, and the game is challenging and entertaining, what does it matter if you are not playing at the level of a professional athlete? How is it dumbing down the experience?

You have it backwards. To make it approachable by the couch-shlub, they necessarily have to dumb it down. Because you're right. We're (mostly) not professional athletes and we don't want to be professional athletes. But if we start to dumb it down, we lose much of the supposed appeal of this system to the hardcore, and end up with a slightly (if that) more complex version of wii boxing.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I dunno, perhaps it's because I'm in the twilight of my "hardcore" years.

But I have no problems seeing the attraction of Natal with regards to certain types of games as sole controller and other types of hardcore games where it's a complementary system to a standard control scheme.

As to pleasing both hardcore and casual types in the same game... Uh, why? It's rare enough that a dev even attempts to please both casual and hardcore in the same game. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there probably is one.

For example with most sports games, there's the hardcore ones that are big on realism, control, skill, etc... And then there are the casual ones that make it easy to play and don't require much skill. Baseballs games in Japan for example run the gamut from ultra easy and casual to some American games that focus on skill and realism.

Likewise I'm sure a dev would decide ahead of time whether to target the hardcore market that wants a little more realism and skill and the more casual market that wants an easy way to play that makes them look good.

Regards,
SB

 

[TheChefO]

I dunno, perhaps it's because I'm in the twilight of my "hardcore" years.

But I have no problems seeing the attraction of Natal with regards to certain types of games as sole controller and other types of hardcore games where it's a complementary system to a standard control scheme.

As to pleasing both hardcore and casual types in the same game... Uh, why? It's rare enough that a dev even attempts to please both casual and hardcore in the same game. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there probably is one.

For example with most sports games, there's the hardcore ones that are big on realism, control, skill, etc... And then there are the casual ones that make it easy to play and don't require much skill. Baseballs games in Japan for example run the gamut from ultra easy and casual to some American games that focus on skill and realism.

Likewise I'm sure a dev would decide ahead of time whether to target the hardcore market that wants a little more realism and skill and the more casual market that wants an easy way to play that makes them look good.

Regards,
SB

Exactly.

Hardcore gamers and casual people that like to have fun for a while with Wii are not the same.

It makes no sense to try and please these two separate audiences.

Not to say that hardcore gamers don't like to fool around a bit with some Wii sports or what not, but Wii sports makes no apology for what it is.

 

[obonicus]

I dunno, perhaps it's because I'm in the twilight of my "hardcore" years.

But I have no problems seeing the attraction of Natal with regards to certain types of games as sole controller and other types of hardcore games where it's a complementary system to a standard control scheme.

As to pleasing both hardcore and casual types in the same game... Uh, why? It's rare enough that a dev even attempts to please both casual and hardcore in the same game. I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there probably is one.

For example with most sports games, there's the hardcore ones that are big on realism, control, skill, etc... And then there are the casual ones that make it easy to play and don't require much skill. Baseballs games in Japan for example run the gamut from ultra easy and casual to some American games that focus on skill and realism.

Likewise I'm sure a dev would decide ahead of time whether to target the hardcore market that wants a little more realism and skill and the more casual market that wants an easy way to play that makes them look good.

Regards,
SB

Okay. But all along, I've never had a problem with games being made for motion controls. I have no problem with some people enjoying them. My problem is that, until this E3, a whole bunch of people who had absolutely no interest in Wii Sports are now advocating that sort of game.

 

[betan]

Then why aren't you applying the same logic to Sony? They haven't shown anything either. So you assume that they "could" but assume that MS "can't".

Let's stop and think for a sec. I know this may be a challenge for some (not specifically you), since I keep seeing Sony references.
Sony showed that they can accurately and with extreme low latency they can track a fricking stick. Is this interesting or impressive? I'll say not as much as what you can do with an accurate, responsive 2.5d camera. But what would you show besides what you can do with the system if you were Sony? You would probably show a "paint" tool that can actually paint whereever you want, an arrow demo, a couple of selection demos or a sword demo. Seriously, what are you skeptical about Sony tech that they were afraid to show? And you talk about free passes and hypocrisy.

Now please one of you optimistic posters here, can you please answer the same question for MS? What the hell would you show if you had a decent 2.5D camera? IOW, what did you expect, what did you get? An answer would be preferable, especially without a concrete argument.

And then go on to make snide comments about MS supporters?

That I did, not about all though, specifically wrt Natal.

To be fair shouldn't you also be making snide comments about PS3 supporters and the fact that you shouldn't believe Sony's claims until they actually show a game?

Have you watch the demo? What claims you find unbelievable there? They only claimed they can (once again) accurately track a stick. Did you see a bullshit video about the things that they didn't do, or you think couldn't do? I feel like we are in a paradox now; same question same answer, same question, same answer, that surely isn't a way to constructive discussion.

Something a lot of people seem to be doing to MS, yet the whole while giving Sony a free pass.

Please stop.

Myself? I'm sure both systems have games in developement for them. What games, noone really knows. What actual capabilities will show up? Again noone really knows.

No one really knows about Natal. Why? Because ...wait for it... wait for it... yep, they haven't showed it. So is this a camera with 15cm depth resolution and 500msec latency? It may very well be, we have no idea now. What can you do with it wrt us gamers? We have no idea. OK cool. What do we know?

But to claim that because one company didn't show something you personally didn't find impressive, that's it patently impossible for them. While giving the other company a free pass even though they also didn't show anything other's found personally impressive is hypocritical at best.

That would be hypocritical if they had both showed something similar, and someone claimed one and only one of them was impressive.
There are _realtime_ zcam demos out there you know.

 

[betan]

No. Nor down your trousers.

Oo-er, just had a nasty thought. Did you say the z-axis resolution was 1.5 cm?

That was based on Zcam. I thought they were using similar tech at the time, but now I'm not so sure (even ignoring the controller in camera). Still, I think they may switch to that considering how much time they have to market.

 

[zRifle1z]

Anyone know if Sony sent out SDK's to developers? If not did they mention when they plan to?