Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Silent_Buddha]

Ricochet is definitely the kind of game that I would get this for. The driving videos though - a sportsman that was sweating like one minute? I don't think that's going to be really practical in the end, just too tiring. You'll need some kind of shortcut. But I'm sure they'll figure something out. If it's precise enough maybe you could lean your elbows on your knees. Could be bad for your back, but that might be a way in which you'd be able to manage playing it a little longer. But I can definitely see a really cool aerobics type game, ddr type game, martial arts training, fighting game, etc. That's the kind of thing that makes me most excited about this for sure! Being a goalie for hockey though as someone else mentioned - although the lag seems pretty low from these videos, I think that may be a step too far. Still could be fun though of course.

I doubt anyone will come out with a serious racing game that would require you to drive for extended periods of time. Something like a Kart racer though with cute intermissions where you could rest your arms, that might be possible.

However, I don't think Burnout Paradise was so much about this is the type of game we might make with it, as it was a proof of concept.

It can work in a demanding 3D environment. It can recognize anyone of any height/weight virtually instantly and begin working. It can work in dim lighting (many articles mentioned the room wasn't well lit and was a somewhat dim hotel room). It can track pertinent body parts no matter what the person does short of completely obscuring it or going out of the camera field of view. Etc...

And probably as a practical test that MS is mostly likely using to collect data on how well it works and where it needs improving. In various articles for example it mentions monitoring hardware and displays hooked up. Also showing how well it tracked multiple people in the scene even though no actual demo was created to show this in action. So it's a fair bet that MS was using this not only to promote Natal but also to gather more data on it.

Heh, Sugar Ray using the breakout type game as a Psuedo boxer is pretty interesting though. I've never been one for boxing games on the console as I just can't translate my physical reactions to button presses and always just fail miserably. If a boxer comes out for Natal I might give it boxing another try on console.

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I wonder, though. Besides the lack of feedback, which I think is very important, I'm never going to throw a punch as fast as Manny Pacquiao. It's the same discussion we had on motion+. I'm just a guy; not a master swordsman, though my thumbs are better at faking it than I am.

This is what developers need to get right, and I dare say most will fail given past games. The opposition has to be set at exactly the right level so the player is pushing their limits but still able to win. In a boxing game where you want the action to be fast, it must only be fast relative to the player's reactions. A slow player needs a slower paced game. A seasoned boxer needs the game faster. Whoever you fight against needs to scaled down to your abilities, so the beginner can beat Sugar Ray is they really concentrate, while the expert has also to concentrate. Likewise in a fantasy RPG where you have to wield the sword, the game should adapt. This way the player would actually grow in skill.

It's the reason players of sports play like-able players, instead of too-easy or too-hard players. There's a 'growth' zone that's beneficial. Too low is no fun, and too high is frustrating. Sadly, IMO, hardly any computer games ever get this right, and those that offer a challenge are targeted at hardcore gamers with uberskills. True adaptive difficulty that isn't nerfed (like Oblivion) and isn't more than higher HP of mobs is very rare.

 

[Naboomagnoli]

Then why aren't you applying the same logic to Sony? They haven't shown anything either. So you assume that they "could" but assume that MS "can't".

And then go on to make snide comments about MS supporters? To be fair shouldn't you also be making snide comments about PS3 supporters and the fact that you shouldn't believe Sony's claims until they actually show a game? Something a lot of people seem to be doing to MS, yet the whole while giving Sony a free pass.

Sony's demos did demonstrate the technical abilities of the PSMC quite concisely and unambiguously. They showed tech clearly working and with nothing (besides form factor) really left wanting. It is also easily relatable to tech already in the market and shown to be working. Nothing that was shown in the demonstration was staged or manipulated to appear more real than it was. We also know, more or less, exactly what the tech itself is doing. The only thing we don't know is how much of the PS3 CPU is actually going to be taken up by translating the controller input into actions onscreen (which is perhaps why they couldn't hack an existing game easily?)

MS's concept trailers promise much that in practice we haven't seen concrete evidence of, and is strewn with ambiguity. Even with the Burnout video above, we can see that the system picks up most of the steering movements (albeit with some discernible lag reminiscent of the Sixaxis tilt controls), but there are so many unknowns regarding where the system wants to be and where we can see it is now.


Incidentally, one potential killer app for the young market use for a Natal-like system once they get it out there would be some sort of dancing / choreography game, perhaps mixed with a Singstar/Lips setup. As well as seeing themselves alongside the latest teen stars from High School Musical 5 - Mission To Moscow, it'd probably be quite good at telling them how to improve, and slowing certain bits down for practice runs if they're struggling.

 

[one]

Can Natal detect what you do with your hands behind your back?

 

[patsu]

We have access to Sony's motion sensing patents. We have used PS Eye and EyeToy for years. The new motion sensing usage model is also well understood (Thanks to Wii). The live tech demoes were quite varied and detailed (No concept video !). If you read the GAF thread, Titanio has quite a few good take on the Sony controller. I'll summarize in the appropriate thread later.

Meanwhile here're some more quotes/perspectives about all 3 motion tech (stolen from Titanio):
http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1601216

Matt Ryan (Nintendo of Canada):

"Wii MotionPlus offers a level of precision that is unique to the Wii Remote and Nintendo's Wii console," Nintendo of Canada spokesman Matt Ryan said.

"There will be more software experiences that will use Wii MotionPlus combined with our key franchises that are only available on Wii. Plus, when you pioneer the technology you have the opportunity to finesse and enhance it.

"That is exactly what Wii MotionPlus is offering."

Shane Kim (MS):

"Nintendo's success with the Wii is good, because it shows what can happen when you lower the accessibility barrier more. But at the end of the day, you're still tethered in some fashion to a controller," said Shane Kim, Microsoft's corporate vice president of strategy and business development for the games division. (We spoke to Kim before Sony unveiled its own take on the motion controller.)

Matt Levitan (SCE of Canada)

"Having a dedicated hard drive and Blu-ray player in every PS3 means we have the ability to do things the Wii and Xbox 360 can't," said Sony Computer Entertainment Canada spokesman Matt Levitan.

"Our strategy will be to build the (motion controller) functionality into our high-definition lineup of software, in addition to making games specifically for the device. It will ensure that we don't have just an abundance of mini-game collections."

EDIT:

Can Natal detect what you do with your hands behind your back?

As I understand, the skeleton constructor will do a best effort to "fill in the blank". But someone is right above, the subtle hand orientation and shape is currently not tracked. They will need more work to figure that out but it's limited by the camera resolution.

 

[Naboomagnoli]

No. Nor down your trousers.

Oo-er, just had a nasty thought. Did you say the z-axis resolution was 1.5 cm?

 

[patsu]

Not me ! Someone else estimated but no one has validated it. The Tony Hawk guy's comment is as expected. You cannot use a camera based solution to track fast movement yet.

I wonder how fast Cell can go with a depth sensing camera though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Can Natal detect what you do with your hands behind your back?

Obviously Natal will be no more able to know which hand you are hiding the penny in than any person who was stood in front of you. In that vein, it won't work if you stand behind the sofa either. My response is 'why would it have to?' How many games are going to benefit from having the player apply their manual dexterity behind their back? The player on the whole is going to want their hands in the most natural places, in front of them or to the sides. Cases where the hands may be occluded, like taking a swing, can be tracked from interpolating motions to predict joint placements.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Why would you want to play a game with your hadns behind your back?

 

[manux]

Obviously Natal will be no more able to know which hand you are hiding the penny in than any person who was stood in front of you. In that vein, it won't work if you stand behind the sofa either. My response is 'why would it have to?' How many games are going to benefit from having the player apply their manual dexterity behind their back?

What if it's a multiplayer game and gamers partially occlude each other...

edit. I can also imagine the boxing use case where other hand is occluded so camera cannot see it... would make detecting when punch starts pretty hard.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But if the hand passes from front to back, Natal can predict where it is for a short period. That's not a problem, and it's also not the same thing as trying to follow a person's hands when they are occluded. If players getting in each other's way is a problem, that's perhaps an issue with the idea of trying to get four players active in a small spot There are going to have to be some guidelines and requirements imposed on the players, just like Wii has a distance limit (sidestepped by homebrew IR sources)

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'm interested to see how well it handles things like standing with your feet together. If your pants are baggy and touch between your legs, will it be able to see two legs or one? Same if you put your arms straight down beside your body. Mind you, I can't think of many games where you'd want to stand stiff as a board in a straight line, but from a technology perspective, I'm curious to see if it can handle it.

 

[thatdude90210]

One thing I haven't seen in either MS's or Sony's new motion tech is pointer function that's as quick and easy as a mouse. Only the Wii IR pointer works that way.

Where you would need something like that is a web browser. I don't see how moving your hand across your body or reaching all around is easier than sitting with a wiimote in hand on your lap and just pointing. PES 2009 wii uses the pointer very well. I think RTS games is another area where a pointer would work well.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I'm interested to see how well it handles things like standing with your feet together. If your pants are baggy and touch between your legs, will it be able to see two legs or one? Same if you put your arms straight down beside your body. Mind you, I can't think of many games where you'd want to stand stiff as a board in a straight line, but from a technology perspective, I'm curious to see if it can handle it.

Just hazarding a guess here as I'm sure the people working on Natal have run into these problems.

But I would assume that once the camera see's a "person" with all 4 limbs and a head, that even if you brought everything into your body and and stood straight with legs together and arms locked it would still "know" that it is a person, so once you unfolded your arms/legs it would resume tracking them as normal.

I suppose it could be a problem if you stood in that legs together arms locked at your sides position before even turning the unit on. But then as soon as you moved, it would begin tracking what it's supposed to.

But that does bring up an interesting point. What if you have a girl in front of it trying to use it in a full length dress?

I'm sure wearing a head to toe raincoat could probably pose problems also. Then again if you are trying to play a console game in a head to toe raincoat you have other problems.

Regards,
SB

 

[Naboomagnoli]

Thatdude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

4:40 on, when he's manipulating the shapes. Selects them pretty damn quickly.

 

[thatdude90210]

Thatdude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

4:40 on, when he's manipulating the shapes. Selects them pretty damn quickly.

That's pretty good, should work well for RTS games.

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.

The Wiimote can do simple pointer (used like a laser pointer), simple motion (waggle), buttons and joystick with the nunchuck, and 1:1 motion with motion plus. But it adds up to an $80 full controller.

 

[one]

My response is 'why would it have to?'

To accurately model and simulate a forehand stroke by a tennis player or pitch mechanics of a baseball pitcher. If it can do them, even professionals can use it to correct their form. Wii Sports + the old Wii remote was not enough.

That's pretty good, should work well for RTS games.

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.

In the same video, from 5:09, they demonstrated drawing/writing with sub-millimeter accuracy. Can you write with a mouse?

 

[Naboomagnoli]

That's pretty good, should work well for RTS games.

Though it's not quite mouse pointer, still have to wave the wand around.

The Wiimote can do simple pointer (used like a laser pointer), simple motion (waggle), buttons and joystick with the nunchuck, and 1:1 motion with motion plus. But it adds up to an $80 full controller.

I'm sure if he was sitting on a sofa he'd be able to demonstrate in a less animated way

Things like that are down to the software to deal with the controller input, shirley? If it is truly 1:1 with such precision (as was demonstrably the case), it's still up to the software how they want to use the data coming in. The point is more that it can be used as 1:1. If they want to up the sensitivity so small hand movements move the cursor more dramatically, then it's the same procedure as upping the sensitivity on a mouse.

 

[obonicus]

In the same video, from 5:09, they demonstrated drawing/writing with sub-millimeter accuracy. Can you write with a mouse?

In all fairness, THAT guy could write with the wand. Some people can indeed write with a mouse; I know several pretty amazing artists who make do with the mouse when they don't have their tablet around. Doesn't mean anything to me, the klutz.

 

[Scott_Arm]

... What if you have a girl in front of it trying to use it in a full length dress? ...

I guess you'd have to ask her to take her dress off.