Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[tha_con]

I've seen this comment made several times, mostly from you---where are you guys getting this from?

I think you are getting confused by the terminology. Molyneaux mentioned he let a developer 'drive' Milo...that's what Claire was. There was no man behind the curtain, all he meant was Claire knew how Milo behaved and knew how to 'trigger' certain events for him to respond.

We've seen plenty of demos, including impressions from people who have used it, of a retail 360 running a fast-paced and demanding game with Natal without any performance hit. So yes, we've seen it. But let's please stop with the accusations that Milo was a puppetshow, it's absolute nonsense. There are legitimate complaints and concerns about Natal, you'd best be served by focusing on those.

I'm getting it from ListenUp and Giant Bomb Cast, folks who went to see "Milo" live in action, and said that a developer was hooked up to an Xbox 360 via Laptop doing "something" to trigger reactions from Milo. I dont' recall which podcast, but one of the members said Milo failed to response, and then conveniently reacted when the developer was paying attention again. It's extremely "suspect".

Even then, Milo isn't that impressive if he only reacts to certain trigger words. Voice recognition is capable of pretty much the same results.

In reference to the other demos, again, we've seen nothing that requires very specific input. Everything is just general tracking of limbs. Even burnout, it's just tracking your fists moving.

I think it's more legitimate to question the technology than it is to blindly accept it for the charade that it was presented as.

 

[Scott_Arm]

...
In reference to the other demos, again, we've seen nothing that requires very specific input. Everything is just general tracking of limbs. Even burnout, it's just tracking your fists moving.

I think it's more legitimate to question the technology than it is to blindly accept it for the charade that it was presented as.

I wasn't blown away by the Milo demo. It seems to be very primitive at this point.

But as for burnout ... It's just tracking your fists moving? I mean, think about that. It's actually tracking your fists moving. Maybe it isn't the ideal game for Natal, but it demonstrates very clearly that it can actually track a part of your body, and not just motion. One of the reports mentioned standing on their toes, kneeling on the ground etc, and all the while the hand tracking for steering never screwed up. To me, that's very impressive. It's a far cry from a complicated twitch game, but body tracking is freaking cool.

I guess it depends on how you look at this thing. If you look at it from a gamer's perspective, maybe it isn't that great. Maybe nothing has been shown to really get excited about in the world of gaming. From a technology standpoint, I think it's pretty damned awesome, even if it never ends up lending itself to be the primary mechanism for controlling a complex game.

 

[patsu]

I wasn't blown away by the Milo demo. It seems to be very primitive at this point.

Ha ha... and yet no one has done a real, live tech demo on it yet. The Milo video also reminded me of this:

The vision is long in the tooth.

In the Apple system (90s), they abstracted and implemented an English-like scripting language and of course speech recognition. So you could really navigate through the system and applications via voice commands (e.g., "<Name of computer>, move the second paragraph of the document to the fifth paragraph"). If the system catches what you were saying, it will execute the instructions. It also has cartoon avatars to interact with you. The system didn't take off for various usability and business reasons.


I think the Natal Burnout demo tracks the feet too (for the pedals)

 

[Nesh]

I wasn't blown away by the Milo demo. It seems to be very primitive at this point.

But as for burnout ... It's just tracking your fists moving? I mean, think about that. It's actually tracking your fists moving. Maybe it isn't the ideal game for Natal, but it demonstrates very clearly that it can actually track a part of your body, and not just motion. One of the reports mentioned standing on their toes, kneeling on the ground etc, and all the while the hand tracking for steering never screwed up. To me, that's very impressive. It's a far cry from a complicated twitch game, but body tracking is freaking cool.

I guess it depends on how you look at this thing. If you look at it from a gamer's perspective, maybe it isn't that great. Maybe nothing has been shown to really get excited about in the world of gaming. From a technology standpoint, I think it's pretty damned awesome, even if it never ends up lending itself to be the primary mechanism for controlling a complex game.

Is there a video of Natal demonstrating Burnout?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Is there a video of Natal demonstrating Burnout?

Unfortunately, not really. You can watch people playing it, but they wouldn't let people video tape the display or the hardware. So you can see people standing there moving their hands in the air to steer and moving their right foot back and forth to start/stop. The way it was working, they didn't have analog speed control. It was basically pedal to the floor or foot on the brakes. You could probably dig up a video on engadget, gizmodo or kotaku, but it's pretty much just as I described it.

 

[onanie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0-4-FObaRU

A youtube video of a guesture controlled TV at CES this year. It provides a "mouse like" pointer that with some refinement could probably be used to control a FPS style game. (not that anyone would want to, but there have been some comments that this would be impossible in the natal world)

It is interesting to see that in a single-eyed camera. Especially the forward thrust to confirm an action.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

How much would one of those body-suit setups used for motion-capture cost?

Suit itself is cheap, actually you can buy your own stuff; surfer or dancer equipment is OK, all that matters is that it has to be skin tight. Kinda inconvenient to wear for long, though (yeah, I did some of that a few years ago

The markers themselves weren't cheap back in ~2001, but you had to buy them from Vicon and I guess they had quite a profit margin It shouldn't be too expensive to mass manufacture though.

However, the thing only works when you have proper IR lighting and camera equipment, so it's useless for Natal.


ILM's iMocap (Pirates 2 and Iron Man) is different, completely image based I guess, where the suit is more important. I have absolutely no clue about it though as it's proprietary tech.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Actually your brain is not easily trick or confused. Your brain does just fine manipulating virtual objects with a few buttons and a couple of analog sticks.

Yeah, another interesting field is Wacom digitizing tablets used for painting on the computer. The mapping isn't 1-1, and you get feedback from a cursor but it still works just as well as looking at your own hand.

In fact, now that Wacom has the Cintiq where there's a full 20 inch LCD screen on top of the tablet, many users have found it problematic that their own hand covers up a large portion of the screen, in other words the 'canvas'. So the brain can certainly adapt very well.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yeah, another interesting field is Wacom digitizing tablets used for painting on the computer. The mapping isn't 1-1, and you get feedback from a cursor but it still works just as well as looking at your own hand.

I actually have real issues using a graphics tablet. It lacks the accuracy I've already learnt with pencil. I find it easier to draw and scan than draw direct. Which goes to show a person can learn anything, but if the learning is too ahrd, especially compared to something they can already do another way, they may well given up trying!

 

[Laa-Yosh]

How big was that tablet, and what make? Anything other then Wacom stuff is usually a lot worse.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Small and few years old Wacom Graphire. It's horizontal lines I have the most issue with. I get a lot more kinks/wobbles than with pencil, and general curvature - my arm doesn't like drawing straight lines when it can't see the end of the nib! I love the mouse for it's faultless response though, and the stylus is very convenient for some tasks. It'd be nice to get both options into console interfacing in general through some means. A small, pencil-sized pointer would be good IMO, with suitable noise dampening to stop the jitters.

 

[Arwin]

I have and use the exact same tablet as you Shifty. I think I'm more comfortable than you with the drawing bit though, but then I don't use it a lot right now. For a while though I tried using the Stylus instead of a mouse but damn that was a disappointment - holding a pencil is downright exhausting and it cramped my hand like mad. Biggest gripe with the grapphire now is its drivers. They could definitely do with an update, but considering how old the tablet is that's very unlikely.
Oh and if it's the original grapphire like mine, it's bound to be more than a few years old by now.
It will be interesting to see if they can simulate mouse or pointer like behaviour with Natal, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're better off with coming up with something new.

 

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

Sugar Ray Leonard and crew play Ricochet and Burnout

Felicia Day plays Ricochet

Paul Rodriguez plays Ricochet

IMO it looks pretty damn fun and Burnout looks great considering it is just a hack! I would love to see a Mario Kart style game made with this device, and after seeing Sugar Ray in front of the screen punching at the balls a boxing game would be amazing.

 

[Arwin]

Ricochet is definitely the kind of game that I would get this for. The driving videos though - a sportsman that was sweating like one minute? I don't think that's going to be really practical in the end, just too tiring. You'll need some kind of shortcut. But I'm sure they'll figure something out. If it's precise enough maybe you could lean your elbows on your knees. Could be bad for your back, but that might be a way in which you'd be able to manage playing it a little longer. But I can definitely see a really cool aerobics type game, ddr type game, martial arts training, fighting game, etc. That's the kind of thing that makes me most excited about this for sure! Being a goalie for hockey though as someone else mentioned - although the lag seems pretty low from these videos, I think that may be a step too far. Still could be fun though of course.

 

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

really practical in the end, just too tiring.

I think that is the entire point of it! A boxing game would be excellent with this thing, especially with full body motion control. You could weave, bob, fade, throw hooks, uppercuts, jabs in a way that has not been done in any game prior. Maybe this device would not be great for FPS or RPGs, racing sims and Street Fighter style fighting games, but there are a whole bunch of other interesting experiences you could get with this device, such as flying games, surfing, tennis, etc.

 

[obonicus]

I think that is the entire point of it! A boxing game would be excellent with this thing, especially with full body motion control. You could weave, bob, fade, throw hooks, uppercuts, jabs in a way that has not been done in any game prior. Maybe this device would not be great for FPS or RPGs, racing sims and Street Fighter style fighting games, but there are a whole bunch of other interesting experiences you could get with this device, such as flying games, surfing, tennis, etc.

I wonder, though. Besides the lack of feedback, which I think is very important, I'm never going to throw a punch as fast as Manny Pacquiao. It's the same discussion we had on motion+. I'm just a guy; not a master swordsman, though my thumbs are better at faking it than I am.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Just out of curiosity, but what exactly has Microsoft shown that would suggest natal is capable of such?

We've seen a person make extremely broad movements for "paint" (none of which was accurate) and we've seen very general "limb" tracking in Ricochet. we've also seen her play with fish (again, nothing accurate requried).

lastly, we saw 1 character (milo) interact with a person, however, the experience, as many press members have pointed out, is potentially all puppet strings, as a developer was always connected to the system with a laptop, so Milo wasn't running on his own.

Right now, I'm far more tempted to consider nearly everything about Natal smoke and mirrors, as far as the "promises" go.

Well I would assume that Burnout Paradise is at least a somewhat demanding real 3D rendered video game that has been released...

Regards,
SB

 

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

I wonder, though. Besides the lack of feedback, which I think is very important, I'm never going to throw a punch as fast as Manny Pacquiao. It's the same discussion we had on motion+. I'm just a guy; not a master swordsman, though my thumbs are better at faking it than I am.

The game does not need to be a one to one simulation with real life to be fun, I mean even Fight Night seems slow and stiff compared to real boxing. The very nature of this technology requires you to be active, moving your limbs and torso, not sitting down. Obviously there are some concerns as to how accurate the device can to be to pull off high precision FPS, head tracking, or as some suggested finger movement, but I believe those features are secondary to the devices real design, which is to attract people who play Wii Fit, Wii Sports, etc without seeming like its just a rip-off.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It's nice to be a faithful believer, but I personally like to think "just because they _didn't_ do something doesn't mean they _could_. ". Yep I know, obvious.

Then why aren't you applying the same logic to Sony? They haven't shown anything either. So you assume that they "could" but assume that MS "can't".

And then go on to make snide comments about MS supporters? To be fair shouldn't you also be making snide comments about PS3 supporters and the fact that you shouldn't believe Sony's claims until they actually show a game? Something a lot of people seem to be doing to MS, yet the whole while giving Sony a free pass.

Myself? I'm sure both systems have games in developement for them. What games, noone really knows. What actual capabilities will show up? Again noone really knows.

But to claim that because one company didn't show something you personally didn't find impressive, that's it patently impossible for them. While giving the other company a free pass even though they also didn't show anything other's found personally impressive is hypocritical at best.

Bleh...

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

I think that is the entire point of it! A boxing game would be excellent with this thing, especially with full body motion control. You could weave, bob, fade, throw hooks, uppercuts, jabs in a way that has not been done in any game prior. Maybe this device would not be great for FPS or RPGs, racing sims and Street Fighter style fighting games, but there are a whole bunch of other interesting experiences you could get with this device, such as flying games, surfing, tennis, etc.

Oh I agree. By the way, upper body movement was one of the first practical uses I'd thought of for the sixaxis. I still think it would be a perfect match. But we need motion controls widely accepted on all platforms before we'll get big games like Fight Night to support it I guess! Would be great though!