Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[Crossbar]

Here are some analysts take on the new controllers.

Lazard Capital Markets analyst Colin Sebastian has predicted that newly announced motion control interfaces will give this console generation extra legs.

Microsoft’s and Sony’s move to develop new motion sensing technology “should… provide the industry with its next growth driver and extend the console cycle,” said Sebastian in an investor note.

Earlier today, Xbox Live GM Marc Whitten said that Project Natal could add “years” to the Xbox 360’s lifecycle.

Cowen Group analyst Doug Creutz said he thought Sony’s announcement showed the most promise of the two.

“In contrast to previous years, we thought Sony actually did the best job among the hardware manufacturers… We felt Sony's gamer-oriented motion capture camera was superior to Microsoft's casual-oriented offering.”

I think they are right in their prediction that the controllers will help prolong the life of the consoles. The casual crowd usually start buying the consoles when they have come down in price and now they will have another incentive beside better graphics to keep buying.

One analyst claim that MS offering is more casual oriented and therefore not as good as Sonys. I don´t know if being casual is a bad thing in the long run if you are interested in making money, beside I think we haven´t seen the full feature set yet that MS will be offering. I expect them to have wands as well.

 

[obonicus]

Honestly I'm far from convinced that wii U 360 U ps3 has most of the potential video gamer market.
I think Natal (as a tech) has more chance of capturing casual market than Wii can.

I think that gamers overstate the appeal of their hobby. I think there's far more people who have absolutely no interest in videogames beyond solitaire/minesweeper as a time waster while at work. I do honestly know people who say that the Wii is as much console as they'd be interested in (mind you, they don't even own one). While you're right that there's more gamers than those represented by the consoles, I do believe that those who think the Wii is 'too much console' are effectively not interested in gaming as a hobby.

 

[liolio]

Actually MS already think at a higher level than video game only, it's really show with this tech and what they are putting together through the "live" extension.
They position themselves as provider of the living room entertainment, They are pulling things together nicely imho. Soon Ms will be able to do the same kind of ads Nintendo does, think about girls chatting together through Facebook/twitter then deciding to do some gym together, etc. then parents watching movies, The kid playing his hardcore game and latter on the whole family playing a party game.
By next year coming along Natal the NXE refresh MS is likely to provide something out of reach for Sony and Nintendo. Natal match this view of their business plan which imho goes as far as wanted to make the 360 a product worse a buy even if you don't really inted to play.

 

[Danalys]

Just had alittle thought about the Natal driving demonstration. They weren't feeding the stearing wheel. Very hard to tell just how clinched someones hands are with no physical object. They could just sell a wheel like the Wii wheel that could be tracked.

Something else. What happens in sword fighting if you get parried? how long does your character take to recover to your hand position. Could you quicken that time by acting out the effect of being parried?

In FPS I figure it should work like a mouse with a button click to take the mouse off the desk so to speak.

Those last two aply to all three systems.

 

[liolio]

Just had alittle thought about the Natal driving demonstration. They weren't feeding the stearing wheel. Very hard to tell just how clinched someones hands are with no physical object. They could just sell a wheel like the Wii wheel that could be tracked.

Honestly even if it works, it's really intended to supa casual gamers, best use of this tech in a driving game would be to allow sixaxis kind of use of 360 standard controller.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

By next year coming along Natal the NXE refresh MS is likely to provide something out of reach for Sony and Nintendo.

Why out of reach? Everything you've described is either in development or available, or at least doable, on PS3. And Nintendo aren't particularly interested. It's a matter of the console companies actually producing the products and services. MS are in front, but Sony are managing to stay in the running even if always a step or two behind at the moment.

 

[Danalys]

I figure it's just how much money they are willing to throw at it. Eyepet from Sony looks rediclusly polished but I don't have confidence that they have other teams working on similar (in production values) applications for PSeye, or their remote. they demonstrated the virtual haircut for PSeye for example (much like the dress idea shown for Natal) ages ago, but nothing came of it. MS seem to have a concrete idea of how they want to intergrate Natal into NXE. Sony are still figuring out what they want to do. I don't particulary care about virtual hair cuts or dresses but some people may. That's the expanded audience.

 

[betan]

I think that gamers overstate the appeal of their hobby.

My statement has nothing to do with value and perception of gaming.

I think there's far more people who have absolutely no interest in videogames beyond solitaire/minesweeper as a time waster while at work. I do honestly know people who say that the Wii is as much console as they'd be interested in (mind you, they don't even own one). While you're right that there's more gamers than those represented by the consoles, I do believe that those who think the Wii is 'too much console' are effectively not interested in gaming as a hobby.

My point is that people who seem to (or claim to) have no interest in gaming shouldn't really be excluded from potential customer pool unless they have bad memories such as an assault by a monster console or something.

How many soccer moms were interested in video games before they bought wii?
Even among hardcore gamers, I know people who weren't interested in gaming before GTA3. Many gamers only "play" Madden/FIFA, Guitar Hero, DDR, Wii Sports or Wii Fit .

Who knows what tomorrow will bring into gaming. It's pretty clear the market is much larger than what it's now.

 

[obonicus]

My statement has nothing to do with value and perception of gaming.

I wasn't actually referring to you, my apologies.

I was referring to how I hear gamers whinge about how games need to be more and more accessible because only then will the whole world know the joys of videogames. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't believe in the universality of videogames, just like I don't believe in the universality of comic books -- they're not music or books or hell, even television/film.

And therefore I think the market is limited (and not in a clever 'limited by the Earth's population' way, either).

My point is that people who seem to (or claim to) have no interest in gaming shouldn't really be excluded from potential customer pool unless they have bad memories such as an assault by a monster console or something.

Sure, but I don't believe that the well Nintendo tapped for the Wii/DS is bottomless. I'm not even sure that the market tapped by Nintendo will continue to consume videogames the way, well, we do.

How many soccer moms were interested in video games before they bought wii?
Even among hardcore gamers, I know people who weren't interested in gaming before GTA3. Many gamers only "play" Madden/FIFA, Guitar Hero, DDR, Wii Sports or Wii Fit .

Sure. But for this, I think 'accessibility via simplicity' is overrated. I keep thinking to GT; while buying/setting up a racing wheel is extremely hardcore, and the controls themselves are anything but uncomplicated, they're immediately familiar to anyone who's driven a car (well, maybe a bit confusing if you've never driven stick). And so GT reaches a bunch of people who would not play videogames (mostly males, naturally) but who would very much like to pretend to drive $250k cars. And this is not a market that would be better served by simplifying the controls.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring into gaming. It's pretty clear the market is much larger than what it's now.

Sure, there's more market for consoles to tap into -- for instance, no inroads have been made at the WoW crowd or the Sims crowd or the popcap crowd. But I don't think any of these markets will be reached by simply dumbing down the experience more and more. Taking Japan as an example I believe that the reason Wii's growth has stagnated there isn't because the Wii is too hardcore, but because there's a limit to the number of housemoms who are interested in the idea of a 'casual' console. And this is a console bearing the Nintendo name!

 

[Scott_Arm]

The axis of the wand (not XYZ!), along the length of the wand in a linear ray. As a laser beam from a laser pointer.

There's a calibration tool in the Wii menus. This sets up the triangulation so the screen is mapped to motion. You can point on the screen keeping the XY position of the Wiimote static and rotating it on a point. You can rotate to point at any part of the screen and have the Wiimote cursor land pretty much there. It's sensitive enough that it picks up the wobble of the hand! Although range isn't great. You have to be close enough to the TV/sensor bar otherwise it jitters like crazy or loses input competely. Triangulation isn't truly pixel-accurate or screen-aware, but it's as good an approximation as we can hope to get, and is very effective, just as GPS has no idea what the Earth looks like, but can locate where you are on it to a very small fraction of the Earth's area.

I'll have to take a look at the calibration on my remotes. I've done it before, but I've never had it anywhere close to what you're describing. My screen is fairly small and I sit farther away than normal for a screen that size.

 

[Dregun]

Although I see the PS3 solution as a better proof of concept for games that require accuracy I do see a benift from Natal.

Imagine playing RockBand 4 and it tracks the movements you and your friends do with the mic, drums, guitars and transfers that to the characters on the screen! Your friend wants to lift his guitar behind his head during a solo and it is shown on the screen. They could add a whole slew of additions to games like Rockband once they capture the movements of those playing it.

How about extra points for being "Flashy"
How about extra points for going back to back between the guitar player and the singer.
How about extra points for dancing around on the stage during "other" members solo's
How about extra points for fan interaction (pointing to the crowed, pumping your fists etc)

Then again what would it take for the PS3 to be able to do the same thing? Could you just buy a "kit" that has different colored balls attached to individual straps that can be placed on people or objects for tracking? Would GH5 have different colored balls that screw into the top of the guitar, a microphone with a colored ball at the head and drum sticks that are colored? Then use the same techniques the PSEYE used 5 years ago to track the body?

I never liked the Wii because it was "gesture" based controlled, all it cared about was that you move the controller in a certain manner and the outcome was pre determined. Both of these systems seem to expand on the idea of motion controls as a way to replace a controller not just the way you use one.

 

[Scott_Arm]

eh? he showed with subtle movements how accurate it was, twisting the controller slowly to show how it 'identically' followed his movements - they then did the writing part and explained (again) how precise it was.

I watched the video. The movements he uses while writing for the main strokes are not subtle, but I don't doubt the precision of the controller and I said they probably did it that way for demonstration. You know, so people sitting further back know that he's actually moving.

 

[betan]

I wasn't actually referring to you, my apologies.

I was referring to how I hear gamers whinge about how games need to be more and more accessible because only then will the whole world know the joys of videogames.

I agree that's inaccurate and annoying but ...

I don't think that's going to happen. I don't believe in the universality of videogames, just like I don't believe in the universality of comic books -- they're not music or books or hell, even television/film.
And therefore I think the market is limited (and not in a clever 'limited by the Earth's population' way, either).

I strongly disagree here because video game medium is much more flexible and evolving (in multiple directions) faster than all others whether it's comic book or cinema.
The broad coverage also makes videogamers much less stereotypical especially now. The fact that I like video games doesn't really say anything about me, thus I'm not really comfortable with a strict binary devision of world population wrt video games. Even if I was, I don't see how the "interest division" has any asymptotic/long term value.

Sure, but I don't believe that the well Nintendo tapped for the Wii/DS is bottomless. I'm not even sure that the market tapped by Nintendo will continue to consume videogames the way, well, we do.

All true, but that as a completely different issue. The question should be whether or not Nintendo can continue to release products like Wii Sports and Wii Fit and expand.

Sure. But for this, I think 'accessibility via simplicity' is overrated. I keep thinking to GT; while buying/setting up a racing wheel is extremely hardcore, and the controls themselves are anything but uncomplicated, they're immediately familiar to anyone who's driven a car (well, maybe a bit confusing if you've never driven stick). And so GT reaches a bunch of people who would not play videogames (mostly males, naturally) but who would very much like to pretend to drive $250k cars. And this is not a market that would be better served by simplifying the controls.

I agree, there is much more to appeal of games than simplicity of controls. Otherwise all games would just use one button and be done with it.

Sure, there's more market for consoles to tap into -- for instance, no inroads have been made at the WoW crowd or the Sims crowd or the popcap crowd. But I don't think any of these markets will be reached by simply dumbing down the experience more and more. Taking Japan as an example I believe that the reason Wii's growth has stagnated there isn't because the Wii is too hardcore, but because there's a limit to the number of housemoms who are interested in the idea of a 'casual' console. And this is a console bearing the Nintendo name!

I think this is highly reasonable logic but didn't Wii actually start to stagnate before the release of Wii Fit and then jump back up? Before that you could make the same "not bottomless" argument, yet they did expand further in the end.

Yes, there is a limit to number of people who are interested in current Wii offerings, but that says nothing about future of Wii (or potential console gamers in general). Sure it's not easy to come up with a new Wii Sports like attraction every year, Nintendo possibly will fail to in that regard, but there will still be a product to suck in even more people into console gaming.

 

[goonergaz]

I watched the video. The movements he uses while writing for the main strokes are not subtle, but I don't doubt the precision of the controller and I said they probably did it that way for demonstration. You know, so people sitting further back know that he's actually moving.

I think that's down to the fact he's (effectively) writing on a 'whiteboard'

 

[whome0]

Project Natal tech specs always say RGB camera. What is RGB camera, is it just a standard webcam. After all any camera can read rgb colors from images. No one possible know an exact resolution and fps of the Natal rgb camera?

 

[liolio]

Interesingly Eurogamer think that MS could enter the market first

Microsoft and Sony offered no release dates for their technology, and Greenberg wouldn't budge on providing a hint. Presumably his company will enter the market first, as developer kits have been sent out this week and Project Natal is finished hardware. Nevertheless, both could be at least two years' away.

 

[DrJay24]

Project Natal tech specs always say RGB camera. What is RGB camera, is it just a standard webcam. After all any camera can read rgb colors from images. No one possible know an exact resolution and fps of the Natal rgb camera?

One of the sensors is an RGB camera, there are two more (distance and mic array).

 

[dobwal]

Here are some analysts take on the new controllers.


I think they are right in their prediction that the controllers will help prolong the life of the consoles. The casual crowd usually start buying the consoles when they have come down in price and now they will have another incentive beside better graphics to keep buying.

One analyst claim that MS offering is more casual oriented and therefore not as good as Sonys. I don´t know if being casual is a bad thing in the long run if you are interested in making money, beside I think we haven´t seen the full feature set yet that MS will be offering. I expect them to have wands as well.

I think the more casual oriented the better the mass appeal. I don't think that motion controllers will take off with the hardcore crowd until someone takes a big top notch title and incorporate a motion controller scheme that is highly revolutionary which totally breaks down the barriers of limitation presented by traditional controllers. Meaning it not only has to look cool, the mechanics has to be highly functional and move beyond whats possible with current controllers.

 

[Butta]

Here's what I would like to know... what specifically could be done in Natal that could not be done with the PSEye? Hardware wise, do we really know for sure that this thing is that different? Seems like Microsoft claims the magic is in the software, specs for the camera don't seem to be known? Also, looking at EyePet wow PSEye still has a few tricks! In fact, I found that trailer more impressive than anything for Natal so far.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Here's what I would like to know... what specifically could be done in Natal that could not be done with the PSEye? Hardware wise, do we really know for sure that this thing is that different? Seems like Microsoft claims the magic is in the software, specs for the camera don't seem to be known?

They have depth perception. PSEye doesn't. This means a punch directly towards the camera will be perceived as a surface moving towards the screen correctly on Natal, whereas it will be perceived as an increasing area of brightness on PSEye. This also means, for example, you could have a pointer track a Natal user's hand and only activate when they reach towards the screen, passing a distance threshold, whereas on PSEye you'd need a different activation system. In PSMC's case, it's a remote button press.