Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[liolio]

IGN Milo hands on



IGN Natal hands on

Ms will be given a lot of credit for their tech, every return so far has been positive to super enthusiastic. It looks like they are carefully selecting people allowed to test it.
So far I didn't read any hand on experience from the french sites I consult except for one site who managed to grab to journalists from a pretty big news channel (LCI for the french).
Their enthusiasm is quiet communicative. Whenever this launch it will be in the top hot news of most magazine, evening news, etc. When this will launch the whole world will be watching, this goes so much further than video games.
For those interest the vid is here

I think in regard to growing number of returns about Natal and what it seems MS managed to pull out I would as far as saying that the trend on this board is on the verge of being petty.

This thing is big, I hope to learn more about it soon ( and soon won't be soon enough).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

...
You have the same thing using a mouse. We "instinctively" are able to position a mouse with pinpoint accuracy on the screen, but the pointer on the screen and the position of the mouse are not that closely bound.

I strapped a laser pointer onto the side of my Wii remote yesterday and tried it. The laser pointer dot and the dot on the screen had almost no relation to each other. If I placed the laser pointer dot on the place on the screen I wanted it pointed to, the screen pointer was nowhere to be seen.

That's a valid point and an interesting test. However, I'm guessing the relative postitioning can be fairly accurate as the gun attachment offers the player a line of targeting. It'd be very offputting if looking along the gun, the shot landed miles off the mark.

Even if Wii lacks the definition, it's not beyond the technology to get a good mapping between a remote and the screen through triangulation. Especially with several tracking systems as found in PSMC.

 

[tha_con]

Ms will be given a lot of credit for their tech, every return so far has been positive to super enthusiastic. It looks like they are carefully selecting people allowed to test it.
So far I didn't read any hand on experience from the french sites I consult except for one site who managed to grab to journalists from a pretty big news channel (LCI for the french).
Their enthusiasm is quiet communicative. Whenever this launch it will be in the top hot news of most magazine, evening news, etc. When this will launch the whole world will be watching, this goes so much further than video games.
For those interest the vid is here

I think in regard to growing number of returns about Natal and what it seems MS managed to pull out I would as far as saying that the trend on this board is on the verge of being petty.

This thing is big, I hope to learn more about it soon ( and soon won't be soon enough).

I think that also may have a lot to do with the press (strangely) not being allowed to use Sony's motion tech. This may be glowing, but we really need head to head comparisons from the enthusiast press before we start saying "this thing is big".

Afterall, Natal has had rather limited demo time, right? They've played Burnout, which essentially just recognizes a "circular" gesture and takes that to be the steering wheel, and some of the other mini-games. I think it's a bit pre-emptive to start getting excited over glowing reviews without first seeing any negative press to express limitations and or problems it may have. The whole experience seems to be very guided and structured right now, with only certain games being there and certain types of experiences.

I'm reserving my judgement for both products until I have hands on time with them.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think that also may have a lot to do with the press (strangely) not being allowed to use Sony's motion tech. This may be glowing, but we really need head to head comparisons from the enthusiast press before we start saying "this thing is big".

Afterall, Natal has had rather limited demo time, right? They've played Burnout, which essentially just recognizes a "circular" gesture and takes that to be the steering wheel, and some of the other mini-games. I think it's a bit pre-emptive to start getting excited over glowing reviews without first seeing any negative press to express limitations and or problems it may have. The whole experience seems to be very guided and structured right now, with only certain games being there and certain types of experiences.

I'm reserving my judgement for both products until I have hands on time with them.

Yeah, one of the demo writeups for Natal the guy described trying to mess with burnout by standing on his toes or kneeling down and it still seemed to recognize his hands, no matter how he postured his body. So the skeletal tracking seems to be working, which is a good sign even if the game uses only a primitive gesture. The "breakout" game demo also seemed to demonstrate good skeletal tracking, according to most of the write ups. The only thing that was noted in one of them was jumping didn't work, but that was because jumping wasn't animated on the game. It registered on the PC that was displaying the depth information. I'm losing track of which journos wrote what.

 

[RobertR1]

I was watching the elephant thing last night. However, this time I was watching the presenter talking and keeping a close eye on what his avatar was doing. The presenter did a lot of hand gestures and such when explaining his presentation. Watch it carefully and you can see just how well his avatar is responding to all these body/joint movements. The first time out, everyone focuses on the painting but watch it again and ignore the painting part this time. Just watch his body movements being repliacted by the system.

 

[Tap In]

As has been speculated Rare is working on Project Natal

No Banjo Kazooie at E3? No Viva Pinata? Blame Project Natal.

We've been looking for Rare at E3. Microsoft's Shane Kim, corporate v. p. at Microsoft for Xbox 360 strategy and business development, didn't exactly tell us where they are, but he did tell us what they're up to.

"Rare is intimately involved with Project Natal in a number of different dimensions," Kim said, referring to Microsoft's controller-free game control set-up that's been the buzz of E3. "They're doing an awful lot of work, even outside the traditional game space, I would say. Unfortunately I can't go into a lot of detail about that. Rare is alive and well and really having a broader impact on the entire Xbox world than just doing the games they traditionally have in the past."

Rare's most recent publicly shown projects were last year's Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts and Viva Pinata: Trouble in Paradise. Rare also created the Avatar system launched last last year across all Xbox 360s


http://kotaku.com/5279213/microsoft-...natal-projects

 

[dabomb665m]

I was watching the elephant thing last night. However, this time I was watching the presenter talking and keeping a close eye on what his avatar was doing. The presenter did a lot of hand gestures and such when explaining his presentation. Watch it carefully and you can see just how well his avatar is responding to all these body/joint movements. The first time out, everyone focuses on the painting but watch it again and ignore the painting part this time. Just watch his body movements being repliacted by the system.

If you are talking about the promo video... I personally take everything in it with a grain of salt. Those videos could be doctored to make the whole experience seem complete, flawless and all sorts of magical. My skepticism comes from a segment near the beginning of the video where the kid "scans" his skateboard. His hands are clearly in the way of the board art since he must hold the board... but the "copied" board that was displayed on the xbox's TV was a perfect picture of the board (without the boy's hands).

These little details plus the too perfect to be true demos in the promo vid really bother me. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[liolio]

As has been speculated Rare is working on Project Natal

viva pinata could be a nice trial for natal

 

[RobertR1]

If you are talking about the promo video... I personally take everything in it with a grain of salt. Those videos could be doctored to make the whole experience seem complete, flawless and all sorts of magical. My skepticism comes from a segment near the beginning of the video where the kid "scans" his skateboard. His hands are clearly in the way of the board art since he must hold the board... but the "copied" board that was displayed on the xbox's TV was a perfect picture of the board (without the boy's hands).

These little details plus the too perfect to be true demos in the promo vid really bother me. I'll believe it when I see it.

No. The on stage live demo with the guy painting the elephant.

 

[patsu]

of returns about Natal and what it seems MS managed to pull out I would as far as saying that the trend on this board is on the verge of being petty.

I actually like the z camera and the 3D mesh technology behind it.

But the Milo concept video, including the IGN impression TapIn posted, show that it is as I feared so far. You have to speak "properly". It's a "long way to go before the 'Uber Seaman' that he is now". The IGN writer was a little suspicious at the nearby Lionhead staff too. >_<

Test out the speech tech on Windows yourself. Btw, can you touch Milo and have him react like EyePet now ? (I have no clue).

EDIT:

Uhh, the live vision camera has a number of games that use motion sensing as a control. So MS is in essentially the same position as Sony currently. Unfortunately, without studio like lighting (I'd like to see a living room as well lit as the one in the EyePet video) they both are pretty crap. Mine always has issues telling me apart from the background.

Doesn't contradict what I said though. MS is last to the game. The Vision camera games are much less recognized compared to Wii and EyeToy.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

No. The on stage live demo with the guy painting the elephant.

Yup I remember that also where it was able to recognize and display something as small as his fingers bending to mimic the lips of the Elephant chewing on grass or whatever.

Regards,
SB

 

[liolio]

Yup I remember that also where it was able to recognize and display something as small as his fingers bending to mimic the lips of the Elephant chewing on grass or whatever.

Regards,
SB

I vaguely remember this "elephant thingy" but I can't remember where, it's a vid available on live (I watched them yesterday) or it's possible to find on Gametriler for example?

 

[RobertR1]

I vaguely remember this "elephant thingy" but I can't remember where, it's a vid available on live (I watched them yesterday) or it's possible to find on Gametriler for example?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie02k3eAvxY

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I vaguely remember this "elephant thingy" but I can't remember where, it's a vid available on live (I watched them yesterday) or it's possible to find on Gametriler for example?

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-project-natal/50184?type=flv

It's at about 3:10 and on. It's not perfect, and probably not enough to be used for fine control at the moment IMO. But it is able to track the movement of at least half a finger. The end of the trunk also shows fingers every once in a while but appears to pop in and out, not sure if this is due to a limitation of the system or the program is trying to make it easier to do an artistic sillouette. At points you can even see his thumb extend.

Also if you watch (about 0:39). The fingers of his Avatar mimic his fingers as he's doing the demo. If his fingers are straight the Avatar's fingers are straight. If he has his fingers curled as he does a lot. Then the Avatar's fingers are curled. The hands and fingers even clutch and pull up his pants as he does in RL.

Unfortunately once he starts painting the fingers stay clenched no matter what it appears.

Regards,
SB

 

[RobertR1]

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-project-natal/50184?type=flv

Unfortunately once he starts painting the fingers stay clenched no matter what it appears.

Regards,
SB

I noticed that also. I wonder if it's jsut the animation piece not done like the ricochet demo where jumping wasn't animated but it was showing up on the laptop displaying captured information. Also, when he's making the leaves on the tree and has his fingers out, the hand on the avatar doesn't seem to be clinched. I might have to watch that bit again.

 

[patsu]

Why do they need to animate jump specially if the sensor is supposed to track real time ? It's just dots anyway whether it's standing, sitting, sleeping or jumping right ?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Why do they need to animate jump specially if the sensor is supposed to track real time ? It's just dots anyway whether it's standing, sitting, sleeping or jumping right ?

I don't think they need to animate it, it's just that the avatar is probably drawn at a specific spot on the screen, so if you jump, the avatar will copy your posture and movement, but won't actually move up on the screen.

 

[patsu]

If the avatar is not a 1-to-1 mapping of the actual data, you may not be able to judge Natal's performance based on the avatar animation. You'll have to look at the raw data (or processed data within Natal itself).

 

[obonicus]

I noticed that also. I wonder if it's jsut the animation piece not done like the ricochet demo where jumping wasn't animated but it was showing up on the laptop displaying captured information. Also, when he's making the leaves on the tree and has his fingers out, the hand on the avatar doesn't seem to be clinched. I might have to watch that bit again.

I think that it's speculating your hands based on your motions, so if you're waving your wrist around it'll assume your hand is open, and if you're just moving your hand it's flicking your fingers?

Though... maybe it tracks whether your hand is open-closed and is just guessing wrong? I'm not sure, when he starts making the leaves on the tree, when he's waving his fingers more it seems like the avatar is too -- but when he starts just waving his wrist it maybe looks like the avatar isn't waving the fingers either. I could be wrong, since it's not zoomed in then.

One thing I've been wondering about, and no one's really addressed... for a full-body painting program, if it can track 48 skeletal points it's not going to waste 10+ on your fingers. But what if say, there's an application where it assumes that you're sitting on the couch and so your lower body/hands aren't important? Does the camera have enough resolution to make out your fingers then? Maybe not every knuckles, but enough to know whether one is extended or not? I'm assuming it can switch skeletal models, of course.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Yup I remember that also where it was able to recognize and display something as small as his fingers bending to mimic the lips of the Elephant chewing on grass or whatever.

Regards,
SB

The elephant thing was just detecting his silhouette at that point. Hardly amazing from a technology stand point.