Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[ShadowRunner]

I get your point about the flashlight. I'd already edited my post above.

Edit:

I was thinking of pointing in the physical world to select a point on screen, like you'd use a laser pointer during a presentation. There are ways to do this using your hand or arm that would functionally be the same. What you're talking about is in-game, and Natal could not do that from what I've read. I'm not sure which obonicus was referring to when he questioned whether it could be used as a "pointer."

No no, a laser pointer is a good example of what i was meaning. Pointing with a laser pointer is based on rotation and angle rather than where the laser is emmited from on the xy axis. I dont think pointing like you would with a laser pointer would be possible with nadal with any kind of accuracy.

 

[tha_con]

I think the issues people had with burnout and oversteer using Natal probably had more to do with a true lack of tactile feedback.

 

[Scott_Arm]

No no, a laser pointer is a good example of what i was meaning. Pointing with a laser pointer is based on rotation and angle rather than where the laser is emmited from on the xy axis. I dont think pointing like you would with a laser pointer would be possible with nadal with any kind of accuracy.

Who cares? As long as you can have some movement in 2D space in the physical world mapped to your cursor in 2D space, you have exactly the same thing. If all you care about is moving a cursor around on the screen.

If the cursor has a top and bottom so that it has to be rotated, unlike a laser, then it would make a difference.

I see the in-game flashlight as something entirely different, and an obvious limitation of Natal.

 

[Arwin]

I think the issues people had with burnout and oversteer using Natal probably had more to do with a true lack of tactile feedback.

No, it's probably more like sixaxis - you think you need to make exaggerated movements for it to register, and then after a while you figure out that it actually needs only subtle movements. This is why playing Motorstorm with the sixaxis actually isn't tiring - you don't have to hold it in front of you, you just tilt the controller slightly left or right. In fact, you can easily and comfortably play it with one hand (at least I can, have big hands though).

I did a calculation of the lag somewhere else, which according to my primitive estimations end about at about 117ms, if the figure is true that Natal needs 5 frames to scan a scene - I added two more frames for interpreting the data to translate the movements to the game, so it could be a bit less. Lag for the PS3 controller seems to be practically absent. We'll see. I do hope that the final controller launches at or before E3 next year though, with some good software. It should definitely be doable, but it will be hard work for Sony regardless. But it seems that they have a library available for developers ready to go as well, made by the same people who did the wii-mote library. It seems pretty easy to implement, and developers like EA and Sega will greatly benefit from the experience with the Wii-mote.

This thing is still my dream come true - but the Microsoft 3D cam is very cool also. Good times! I guess I'm not hardcore enough, because I've always loved motion controls - just not enough to get a Wii for it. WiiMotionPlus however was tempting to me because it was close to what I was hoping for from the Wii-Mote originally, but now I may be able to hold out.

Anyway, I thought the spray-painting in the demo was really, really cool. I'd probably get this just for that! Would be great in combination with LBP also

 

[Crossbar]

Conversely I read this:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10254684-1.html?tag=mncol;title

Fall 2010 it is then. (Natal)

 

[Scott_Arm]

I did a calculation of the lag somewhere else, which according to my primitive estimations end about at about 117ms, if the figure is true that Natal needs 5 frames to scan a scene - I added two more frames for interpreting the data to translate the movements to the game, so it could be a bit less.

I think the five frames is just to calibrate and find the skeletons. Like, you turn it on and it takes five frames to scan the room and find the person it is going to track and build a skeleton from the point cloud. That was my interpretation of what was said.

 

[Nesh]

I have to agree with Shifty. Sony had a huge weapon in their hands years before anyone came up with the idea of motion sensor controls.

The Eye Camera could have started what Nintendo started.

Sony could have gained momentum from casuals if they demonstrated the possibilities before MS did today.

Sony could have gotten the credibility MS got recently. For example take a look at this.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-eyepet/50608

Why not shown at the conference? Why didnt Sony exploit the technology better and sooner?

It is an extremely similar concept to what MS demonstrated. Only this one is actually a real working title set for release. No controllers. Real objects and yourself are the controllers. You can create objects out of nowhere and interact with the creature.

I think it was Shifty as well who stated 3 or 4 years ago that Sony would have been in a better position in the mass market appeal if an Eye camera was bundled with every console and supported better.

 

[Crossbar]

No no, a laser pointer is a good example of what i was meaning. Pointing with a laser pointer is based on rotation and angle rather than where the laser is emmited from on the xy axis. I dont think pointing like you would with a laser pointer would be possible with nadal with any kind of accuracy.

And that´s why I believe there will be wands as well, but presenting them now would take away some of the hype those crazy videos generated and make it harder to sell the wands separate from the camera.

The Natal camera will alone allow super charged EyeToy games and In the Movies games that actually works. Adding wands will allow them to take Wii type of games to the next level with full body capture of the player which could control the character in third person view.

 

[Crossbar]

I have to agree with Shifty. Sony had a huge weapon in their hands years before anyone came up with the idea of motion sensor controls.

The Eye Camera could have started what Nintendo started.

Sony could have gained momentum from casuals if they demonstrated the possibilities before MS did today.

Sony could have gotten the credibility MS got recently. For example take a look at this.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-eyepet/50608

Why not shown at the conference? Why didnt Sony exploit the technology better and sooner?

It is an extremely similar concept to what MS demonstrated. Only this one is actually a real working title set for release. No controllers. Real objects and yourself are the controllers. You can create objects out of nowhere and interact with the creature.

I think it was Shifty as well who stated 3 or 4 years ago that Sony would have been in a better position in the mass market appeal if an Eye camera was bundled with every console and supported better.

Sure Sony could have exploited the PS Eye more similar to what they did with the Eyetoy, but let´s face it, much of this type of games is aimed at the casual market and the price point of the PS3 just isn´t there yet.

One thing I´ve noted regarding Sony is that they usually don´t introduce new products (PS peripherals in particular) unless they can sell them in significant volumes. They are really going for economy of scale when they release stuff or else they skip it or just keeps waiting until the target volumes can be reached.

Next spring there may be around 35 million PS3s on the market and Sony will be releasing GodOfWar3, GT5 and FFXIII on their platform. I would expect that to trigger a few buy signals in the casual market. A PS3 Sports game may be just right at that time and maybe Sony introduces a new low price entry SKU with a 16 GB flash drve as well?

 

[ShadowRunner]

Who cares? As long as you can have some movement in 2D space in the physical world mapped to your cursor in 2D space, you have exactly the same thing. If all you care about is moving a cursor around on the screen.

It isnt the same at all though. Pointing to move a cursor is different than moving a cursor by any other means. Pointing is the prefered method to use if you want to point at something, anything else is not naturally what you would do and so goes against wate these motion controllers are trying to achieve. Would you be happy with the wii controls if you had to move the whole wand up down left right insead of tilting and rotating it?

Im not sure you are quite understanding what i mean by rotation and angle being the key to pointing devices. By rotating i dont mean making a door knob type motion but the motion you would make moving a mouse left and right while keeping your wrist and arm in the same position. That probably stil wont make it any clearer im not too good at explaining myself lol

 

[Nesh]

Sure Sony could have exploited the PS Eye more similar to what they did with the Eyetoy, but let´s face it, much of this type of games is aimed at the casual market and the price point of the PS3 just isn´t there yet.

One thing I´ve noted regarding Sony is that they usually don´t introduce new products (PS peripherals in particular) unless they can sell them in significant volumes. They are really going for economy of scale when they release stuff or else they skip it or just keeps waiting until the target volumes can be reached.

Next spring there may be around 35 million PS3s on the market and Sony will be releasing GodOfWar3, GT5 and FFXIII on their platform. I would expect that to trigger a few buy signals in the casual market. A PS3 Sports game may be just right at that time and maybe Sony introduces a new low price entry SKU with a 16 GB flash drve as well?

If an Eye Toy was included with every package you ve got large volumes and thus economies of scale right there. The product could have been exploited probably in combination with the standard controller. It would have picked some interest from competition. Price helped Wii sell, but it was also its marketed uniqueness. What would have been there to market as a strategic advantage besides price when you arent the only one offering a similar experience?

The PS brand had more appeal to a wider audience than what Sega's products had years ago. It had some considerable recognition among casuals as well.

Although the PS3 at such a high price it would have never enjoyed the sales of the Wii today, Sony could have combined the market of casuals and core gamers better than anyone else. They would have had a larger appeal than the one they have today.

Their current effort to approach casuals such as EyePet seems like a harder bet considering that the Eye Camera's's support is limited and is an extra cost.

Now imagine how things would have been if the concept video Shifty posted was realized and every PS3 had an Eye Camera.

 

[Strange]

I did a calculation of the lag somewhere else, which according to my primitive estimations end about at about 117ms, if the figure is true that Natal needs 5 frames to scan a scene - I added two more frames for interpreting the data to translate the movements to the game, so it could be a bit less.

5 Frames is okay for certain types of games, but definately unacceptable for some others.
Interesting as I remember that I said somewhere that the lag probably comes to around 0.1 second or so. Motion recongnition of this type is hard to do under 50 milliseconds because of the algorithms and analysis, and thus, a lag of a few frames is probably unavoidable.

 

[liolio]

It isnt the same at all though. Pointing to move a cursor is different than moving a cursor by any other means. Pointing is the prefered method to use if you want to point at something, anything else is not naturally what you would do and so goes against wate these motion controllers are trying to achieve. Would you be happy with the wii controls if you had to move the whole wand up down left right insead of tilting and rotating it?

Im not sure you are quite understanding what i mean by rotation and angle being the key to pointing devices. By rotating i dont mean making a door knob type motion but the motion you would make moving a mouse left and right while keeping your wrist and arm in the same position. That probably stil wont make it any clearer im not too good at explaining myself lol

I think I see what is your concern and I think it can be overcome. For example they could keep the X,Y,Z value for the most extreme part (the closest to the tv) of what considered your arm and then draw a vector with where your elbow supposely is. If you move your forearm really few the chnage in Zvalues won't be that significant in reagrd to the vector value then blending calibration and you already mostly done.
EDIT
They almost only take as Z value of the said vector the Z difference between the elbow and the wrist and only keep X,Y value of the most "extreme" point, that wouldn't change much after calibration.

 

[liolio]

Now imagine how things would have been if the concept video Shifty posted was realized and every PS3 had an Eye Camera.

The point is that underlying software may be the tough thing to pull out properly.

 

[dabomb665m]

It isnt the same at all though. Pointing to move a cursor is different than moving a cursor by any other means. Pointing is the prefered method to use if you want to point at something, anything else is not naturally what you would do and so goes against wate these motion controllers are trying to achieve. Would you be happy with the wii controls if you had to move the whole wand up down left right insead of tilting and rotating it?

Im not sure you are quite understanding what i mean by rotation and angle being the key to pointing devices. By rotating i dont mean making a door knob type motion but the motion you would make moving a mouse left and right while keeping your wrist and arm in the same position. That probably stil wont make it any clearer im not too good at explaining myself lol

I think what the two of you are trying to describe are along the same lines but with different principles. What Shadowrunner is trying to say is that a pointing device (not like a mouse but more like a laser pointer... ala gyroscopic means) would make for a much better pointing interface. Imagine for a moment using a laser pointer for a presentation but not being allowed to use your wrist (perhaps it is attached to your shoulder). You would, in essence, be moving your body all over the room to try and cover the entirety of the presentation screen. I believe this is the problem Shadowrunner is trying to convey... as this issue would not be present with sony's mo-cap based system since you can "point" in 3D space which is then represented on a 2D plane using your wrists... much like writing on a piece of paper or again, pointing with a laser pointer.


Scott_arm is saying that moving a cursor on a 2D plane, regardless of how you achieve it, is the same thing. Neither of you are wrong so to speak. I think Shadowrunner is just trying to say that Natal may have difficulty making cursor manipulation on a 2D plane seem natural for the human body if small joint and finger recognition is not possible with Natal's resolution setup.

I think with Natal, this 2D plane traversal can be achieved with some relative tuning in respect to the distance someone is sitting from the TV using a "virtual UI". Perhaps natal is accurate enough to track your hand and together with z-cam, can track the depth. With this, they can set up a virtual mouse that has it's sensitivity tuned such that movement of the hand does not have to be too drastic to traverse the 2D TV space. In this sense, it is not necessary for Natal to recognize joint movements for 2D cursor traversal using 3D movements ala a laser pointer.

Hope that wasn't too confusing

 

[Need 2 Know]

PS3 Eyepet

New Video of the Eyepet for the PS3

LINK

I really like the look of this, has great potential.

 

[ShadowRunner]

I think what the two of you are trying to describe are along the same lines but with different principles. What Shadowrunner is trying to say is that a pointing device (not like a mouse but more like a laser pointer... ala gyroscopic means) would make for a much better pointing interface. Imagine for a moment using a laser pointer for a presentation but not being allowed to use your wrist (perhaps it is attached to your shoulder). You would, in essence, be moving your body all over the room to try and cover the entirety of the presentation screen. I believe this is the problem Shadowrunner is trying to convey... as this issue would not be present with sony's mo-cap based system since you can "point" in 3D space which is then represented on a 2D plane using your wrists... much like writing on a piece of paper or again, pointing with a laser pointer.

Spot on

 

[Nesh]

The point is that underlying software may be the tough thing to pull out properly.

Depends what you are trying to do.

 

[liolio]

Depends what you are trying to do.

Well through Ms executive interview and the blog, it looks like retrieve "squeletical" information was quiet complex. It looks that the whole thing took MS various R&D division quiet some year of research (even if they are likely to implement only a part of it).
But it's clear that Ms to make the most of Natal has to be able to do what pseye wants to.
Zvalue will helps dismiss the noise/unnecessary data from the optical camera but Natal has to be good at handling datas in 2D too. For fingers for instance expecting tracking/motion mapping is desillusionary still Natal have to be able to recognize some specific hand positions.
I think of simple positions that would give great option in control, that's more 2D shape recognition I guess but still usefull to the overall experience.

 

[Brad Grenz]

I'm curious to know the difference of the accuracy in the camera imaging part and the 3D depth sensing. The camera must have fairly good resolution and accuracy to detect differences in facial expression. What's his dude warned people about overcalibrated their smiles/frowns. You should be able to smile or frown normally.

I'm convinced the lag problem is largely caused by very fast motion which the system has trouble keeping up with. If you're doing the driving game you are barely moving your hands. If you are throwing your arms and legs around like crazy for the breakout game it is gonna have trouble.

I also think that Kotaku report was funny. Didn't bother you holding your arms out like that for a 5 minute demo? What happens when you get it home for a 2 hour game session? I'll bet you switch to the controller in the first ten minutes.