Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[RobertR1]

To say controllers are not a block for mass adoption tells me that one has been bubbled in by their hobby and lost mass market perspective. Self conditioning through many years of experience cannot be projected to the masses.

The success of the Wii is due to it's controller. Due to the simplicity of it. The Wii enables one to simply use the controller as a pointing device with one or two button combinations. A traditional controller is a nightmarish experience for those not entrenched in the hobby. Even for the "hardcore" moving to a new genre can prove challenging.

Take Madden for example. Here's a game that intimidates me and I'm used to a controller! I have to learn different button schemes for multiple positions. Not just one or two but 9,10+ buttons and sometimes even more need to be pressed in combination for more action.

A controller and it's challenges are very visbile even to those who play games regularly. It's level of intimidation to those outside the hobby is more than enough to keep them away.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's everything together...

Yes, but none of those things would have worked without the Wiimote. To make a nice building you need walls and a roof and windows, but you can't say the foundation is unimportant. The film Transformers was good because of the script and action and FX and soundtrack and everything else, and if all you had was some robots changing into cars and back it wouldn't have been a good film, but that backbone is what gave shape to the rest of the film and on which the rest of the film is built. Without that idea, a good script and FX and soundtrack would be an unidentifiable generic movie. Or it's a cake. You can't have a cake without eggs, flour, sugar, and butter, but a shopping bag with these ingredients in doesn't make a cake. You have to actually set out to make a cake, and bake it. Wii is built around Wiimote and motion, and the whole package only exists because of it. It's the software and ideas and hardware combined with a vision. In contrast, sixaxis was just an idea as part of a package deal, and it was pretty much useless, much more akin to a brown paper bag of groceries with no clear idea how to blend them into a good meal.

 

[Toaddio]

Hence why I repeat like a broken record that the hardcore, who all mostly thought the Wii was going to be a colossal failure I might add, simply don't get it.

What you don't understand (or refuse to hear) is that "core" gamers do get it. What they don't like is playing Forza where the acceleration and braking is handled by the computer and the user is only responsible for the steering.

What you don't understand is that it's OK if someone doesn't like that type of game. It is "another Wii game". There's nothing wrong with disliking it even if it's made by Microsoft and not Nintendo.

Direct manipulation is great when you want a short learning curve and little to no mistakes. What you don't understand is that "core" gamers don't necessarily want a game with no learning curve and no mistakes.

 

[ShadowRunner]

To say controllers are not a block for mass adoption tells me that one has been bubbled in by their hobby and lost mass market perspective. Self conditioning through many years of experience cannot be projected to the masses.

The success of the Wii is due to it's controller. Due to the simplicity of it. The Wii enables one to simply use the controller as a pointing device with one or two button combinations. A traditional controller is a nightmarish experience for those not entrenched in the hobby. Even for the "hardcore" moving to a new genre can prove challenging.

Take Madden for example. Here's a game that intimidates me and I'm used to a controller! I have to learn different button schemes for multiple positions. Not just one or two but 9,10+ buttons and sometimes even more need to be pressed in combination for more action.

A controller and it's challenges are very visbile even to those who play games regularly. It's level of intimidation to those outside the hobby is more than enough to keep them away.

It is the experience the controller offers, not the controller itself that appeals. If we bring back the joystick with one button will it sell? No, it is not appealing despite its simplicity. I agree new control methods open gaming to new people, but not because they were intimidated before, because the new experience it enables is appealing in its own right.

 

[scooby_dooby]

You can't possibly believe that there were simply millions of people out there, just dying to play video games, but staying away because of the controller. They didn't say "Oh, all I have to do is swing this controller to play? I'll take one!". Absolutely not. It was a huge combination of things, but most importantly was the fun and the software. The selling point was word of mouth and Good Morning America. Everyone raved about how fun it was to play. I simply do not buy that these people were just waiting to get into video games once the controller was a bit more simple.!

You're missing the point.

They weren't dying to play, because they weren't attracted to the idea of sitting down, motionless, and tapping buttons on a controller.

The software itself is not inherently fun. There is nothing really "fun" about playing Wii Sports with a controller. It's a shallow, fairly unremarkable game. You can't honestly tell me that you think Wii Sports would've been a smash hit on the GameCube with a conventional controller...can you?

It is the control that made it fun, it is the control that brought the appeal back, it was the idea that you can use gestures, and stand up, and MOVE, which attracted the masses of casual/non-gamers.

I simply do not buy that these people were just waiting to get into video games once the controller was a bit more simple.

Who said anything about simple? It's not more simple, I'd argue it's more complex. For example, moving your arm to throw a bowling ball, is more complex than just holding down and releasing a single button. Maybe it's more "natural" but it's not less complex.

What it is though, is a completely different experience.

 

[patsu]

Nintendo could have done Miis and Wii Sports and SD (selling point?) and all those things and none of it would have mattered without the wiimote.

Yes, but none of those things would have worked without the Wiimote.

Yes, but it could be something else... like WiiFit first ? Or PS Move, or Kinect. It may not need to be the exact Wiimote we know today.

Everything else need to line up to support the concept and execution.

EDIT: And let's not forget about Ninty's ability to create a fun and addictive game/application.

 

[obonicus]

What it is though, is a completely different experience.

I'll buy this, but this means that we can't continue to say (not that you specifically said it) that controllers themselves are the barrier, but rather that people weren't interested in the types of games you can play on regular controllers.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'll buy this, but this means that we can't continue to say (not that you specifically said it) that controllers themselves are the barrier, but rather that people weren't interested in the types of games you can play on regular controllers.

The truth is probably not one or the other, but both.

 

[chris1515]

Kinect work only when you stand. Navigation menu is not a realistic option and the same thing for car game or any hardcore game.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099085p1.html

Right now, Kinect only works when you stand. This includes menu navigation. All the cool options to grab a slider and advance through frames of a movie you are watching only work when you are on your feet. Kinect, we've been told, has problems handling your skeletal frame while sitting. The voice commands still work, but every game we've seen and even simple menu navigation have to be done with you out of your seat. That's not exactly how I want to watch my movies. If the focus for Kinect is creating games like Dance Central that naturally would require you to be off your couch, that's great. But I have to say, no one thinks "I am driving a car!" while standing up in their living room.

 

[patsu]

Well, what is the official response ? Kinect doesn't exactly need to track the full body skeleton just for hand gestures. Are they working with another team in parallel for "simple" hand gesture recognition ?

 

[chris1515]

Well, what is the official response ? Kinect doesn't exactly need to track the full body skeleton just for hand gestures. Are they working with another team in parallel for "simple" hand gesture recognition ?

In France one website Gameblog said on April that some game developer told us that Kinect cannot detect correctly the skeleton when your are sitting on a couch.

 

[liolio]

Kinect work only when you stand. Naviagation menu is not a realistic option and the same thing for car game or any hardcore game.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099085p1.html

OUtch that's quiet a drawback. I'm a bit floored right now
Speak about a dirty little secret..

 

[Arwin]

The truth is probably not one or the other, but both.

They are without question both factors that matter, but I want to stress the importance of a different controller interface for a bit. For instance, even with the sixaxis, I could play games like Flower and Motorstorm 2 with people that don't otherwise play games, much like steering wheels helped a long time ago already with games, or lightguns even (I still miss Time Crisis, and I just learnt that there's a new one for Move, and that it sucks hopefully the shoot is better).

The key part here without a doubt is that the different controller interface allows you to control games with muscle skills you already own, reducing the need to learn new ones. This is a key part of the experience, and not only does it make the interface easier and more intuitive, it also heightens the immersion by evoking your own experience with this type of movement. If you are doing a tennis game, then the actual physical similarity triggers primary muscle memory. However, this 'opens the gate' to your higher level memories as well, which will also be evoked.

There is also a slightly less obvious physical reward system in play. Whereas studies have shown that the typical Wii game does not burn that many more calories than regular controller games, simply because your brain is responsible for quite some calories burnt, there is an important distinction between burning calories in your brain and in your muscles: when you burn calories there, stress hormones are burnt alongside them, and converted into reward hormones (neurotransmitters). In other words, you'll get less stressed and feel better about yourself. Not a bad side effect for a game, which otherwise tends to stress you up, and only rewards you when you solve a problem (win a match, solve a problem, finish a level), without actually taking away the stress levels, but just adding 'feel good' hormones into the mix to slightly mask them.

Now obviously the type of games matter as well, but as mentioned before, just about any game out there could have been done with a traditional controller. The advantages of motion controls (or other different control interfaces like even dance mats) are just so much bigger.

I didn't see many people mention the gun-wrapper for the Move by the way, looks pretty decent. Not sure if it would actually be a great help for many games, but some of them at least, like say the new Time Crisis. Pity that game looks like it blows as much as the previous one. They should rework the first three including all the mini-games and just re-release those instead in nice HD.

 

[liolio]

In France one website Gameblog said on April that some game developer told us that Kinect cannot detect correctly the skeleton when your are sitting on a couch.

I missed that one, crap I don't like gameblog much but that was good info. I've figured the problem and it won't be easy to overcome. I guess it has to more to do with separating the body from the couch that the sitting position per SE. I guess Kinect need a gap in Z axis to decide where your body ends... A guy on couch must look like a blob to him. I guess the problem would be the same if one is for example leaning back on a wall...

Even dirtier secret than I though... for a minute I wondered about easy work around... Ms have clever guys... they must have come to this conclusion in seconds...

I think the problem for example must be a non issue sitting "correctly" on a chair as the chair is mostly invisible to Kinect hidden by you body, it has neat limits...
Outch... that's really back I understand now some critics coming for some Ms people... Dirty dirty little secret... Crap Child of eden got me almost sold on the potential of the thing.

 

[chris1515]

I missed that one, crap I don't like gameblog much but that was good info. I've figured the problem and it won't be easy to overcome. I guess it has to more to do with separating the body from the couch that the sitting position per SE. I guess Kinect need a gap in Z axis to decide where your body ends... A guy on couch must look like a blob to him. I guess the problem would be the same if one is for example leaning back on a wall...

Even dirtier secret than I though... for a minute I wondered about easy work around... Ms have clever guys... they must have come to this conclusion in seconds...

I think the problem for example must be a non issue sitting "correctly on chair" as the chair is mostly invisble to Kinect hidden by you body, it has neat limits...
Outch... that's really back I understand now some critics coming for some Ms people... Dirty dirty little secret... Crap Child of eden got me almost sold on the potential of the thing.

It is probably the reason they only do demonstration with people stand up.

 

[liolio]

It is probably the reason they only do demonstration wit people stand up.

Indeed and they must have been working with no success for months which spells nothing good.
But really it's terrible new. I can't imagine the bashing Ms will receive for this if no denial comes soon.
That's imho a terrible news... My "geekyness" is suffering so much right now...

 

[MfA]

If it's depth accuracy isn't good enough to distinguish the couch from your body then they really bet on the wrong technology.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Yup that would be a deal-breaker.

Doesn't really effect their target audience too much, but a bummer for all the people who were only really interested in the UI enhancements (moi).

 

[liolio]

Yup that would be a deal-breaker.

Doesn't really effect their target audience too much, but a bummer for all the people who were only really interested in the UI enhancements (moi).

May be for a dancing game it's OK, but for arcade racing games standing still for some minutes may prove difficult, it get even worse if you consider doing multiple race

 

[liolio]

If it's depth accuracy isn't good enough to distinguish the couch from your body then they really bet on the wrong technology.

Well I guess they could make a "mask" out of the empty couch but the sad part (actually a good part...) is that couch are not hard material you sink in them to various extends...

Ms made a good job at making us blind on the issue but crap... the product is almost already dead for me now... I'm in disbelief right now.