Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[liolio]

I agree, Natal sounds better. MS is sorta on a "winning streak" of terrible names. I mean 'cmon, Bing, Kin?

And that Sony Move video, did anyone else just laugh out loud when they brought out the controller? I now know what it looks like to swing around a lightbulb. I can already picture a new musical game: Maracas Hero.

ROFL

That was such a correct prediction! Kinect?
That sounds weird for a game peripheral, I guess that as it comes to PC too they have to compromise on the name but still

 

[(((interference)))]

Official gameplay video...

The UI interaction with Zune video was way cool. Rafting game still looks good. Not interested in the track running or dancing.

Tommy McClain

The TV is a Sony!

What I'm thinking is it's limited by the range of motions a game is developed for. Full range of motion side to side will most likely limit it to 2 people. Take 2 adults with arms outstrethed and then say a half a meter distance between them. With arms flailing and jumping, you probably wouldn't want to be closer than that to each other.

That would pretty much fill the camera's field of view I would imagine.

Games that can be played sitting on the sofa on the other hand could probably easily fit 4 people into the camera's FOV.

Or say the Kinetimals game where you play with animals. It would probably be able to see 4 people sitting on the floor or whatever.

Anyway, I imagine the player limit is due to FOV restrictions rather than hardware restrictions.

I agree, as the 3 player dancing game tracks the whole skeletion like the running game, but the players assume a delta formation to prevent it from becoming too cramped, so it seems to be more of a FOV issue.

I wonder if Natal will support more than 4 players, perhaps for quiz games that rely on voice recognition or turn based games (like board games) allowing more than 4 people to play.

 

[messyman]

Sony Move 22ms latency

http://www.lazygamer.co.za/ps3/ps3-move-lag-clocked-in-at-22ms-people-claim-its-noticeable/

Kinect 150ms latency

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/xbox-360-kinect-hands-on

The handson is positive!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The dance game looks the best of the casual content on offer, requiring full body matching over and beyond the current dance-mat experience. However, 150ms lag on the control plus 50 from the screen...a fifth of a second is terrible lag for a rythmn game. You won't be moving to the actual beat. For adventure games it could be great, but for games involving timing, such as the hurdling, I think that lag will drive me nuts!

Also why's the peripheral so damned big?! I'm guessing the array mic is very spaced for greater accuracy. It does look ridiculous though. And the new XB looks rough too, seemingly having to be stood on end.

 

[nightshade]

Kinect isn't big...its about the same length to that of a standard Xbox 360 controller.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Which is big for a peripheral 'webcam'. okay, maybe why so weirdly proportioned? Why so wide beyond the actual cameras?

Eurogamer has a Move preview. Just watching now.

Edit: Not a great deal to it. The TV Reality Show game seems a much better fit for Natal. SOCOM looks accurate with a touch of noticeable lag.

 

[(((interference)))]

The dance game looks the best of the casual content on offer, requiring full body matching over and beyond the current dance-mat experience. However, 150ms lag on the control plus 50 from the screen...a fifth of a second is terrible lag for a rythmn game. You won't be moving to the actual beat. For adventure games it could be great, but for games involving timing, such as the hurdling, I think that lag will drive me nuts!

Also why's the peripheral so damned big?! I'm guessing the array mic is very spaced for greater accuracy. It does look ridiculous though. And the new XB looks rough too, seemingly having to be stood on end.

Isn't Halo 3's lag 133 ms? And KZ2 and GTA4's longer than the 150ms Natal figure?

And how can Move's lag be only 22 ms, isn't that below the minimum lag time for 60 fps titles (IIRC 66ms) never mind 30fps titles (100ms)?

Does it seem much worse because you're more sensitive to lag in tracking your body movements?

 

[liolio]

Sony Move 22ms latency

http://www.lazygamer.co.za/ps3/ps3-move-lag-clocked-in-at-22ms-people-claim-its-noticeable/

Kinect 150ms latency

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/xbox-360-kinect-hands-on

The handson is positive!

Isn't Halo 3's lag 133 ms? And KZ2 and GTA4's longer than the 150ms Natal figure?

And how can Move's lag be only 22 ms, isn't that below the minimum lag time for 60 fps titles (IIRC 66ms) never mind 30fps titles (100ms)?

Does it seem much worse because you're more sensitive to lag in tracking your body movements?

I'm confident that the number for given for Move is BS, no game has such low latency to begin with.
So I guess it's the overhead vs a more standard input/controller. Say a game with a lag of 100ms will end at 122ms.
22ms makes no sense... people are purposely forgetting measurements made on standard games...

 

[Silent_Buddha]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/xbox-360-kinect-hands-on

The handson is positive!

This part I found interesting for instant on/off Co-op.

One element about Kinect Adventures which really must be applauded is its implementation of split-screen two-player. It's literally drop-in, drop-out in a local flavour. If you're playing the game solo and someone wants to join in, all they need do is "jump in" to the scene and start playing. The game automatically changes into a split-screen configuration and will return to the solo view if one of the players then decides to duck out of the camera's view

Perfect for a party of kids. "Johnny, let Bobby have a turn now." Out Johnny goes and in Bobby goes without having to wait for an intermission or passing around a controller.

That latency will definitely be a problem with "hardcore" games, but then again Natal isn't targetted at that demographic.

Interestingly the Dance game totally ignores the latency since all it has to do is match your pose and movements to what is displayed on screen. So a built in delay in game before the console tries to match the image negates its effects entirely. Ingenious. And from the player's POV, everything happens instantaneously.

Remains to be seen whether it'll be a turn off to casuals or not, but I'm pretty sure we'll hear lots of moaning on forums with "elite" gamers.

Also interesting to note how people who aren't console gamers would actually have an easier time with some of these games. Gamers expect almost instant response to a button press to jump. Far faster reflex than actually jumping. Casuals with little to no console experience on the other hand, only have the perspective of actual jumping, which is inherently "laggier" than pushing a button.

Regards,
SB

 

[(((interference)))]

I'm confident that the number for given for Move is BS, no game has such low latency to begin with.
So I guess it's the overhead vs a more standard input/controller. Say a game with a lag of 100ms will end at 122ms.
22ms makes no sense... people are purposely forgetting measurements made on standard games...

Are most of the Move titles 30 fps? If so 122 ms is not much better than 133 ms for Natal, especially if you consider that Natal has to do IK calculations etc rather than just track the glowing ball.

And are all the MS developed titles using the same engine? UE3? Or is Rare using their own 360 engine for Kinect Sports? The games all pretty much look the same, any screens of the pet sim yet? Would love to see the Viva Pinata engine at work there.

Also:
Natal Games will be cheaper

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Isn't Halo 3's lag 133 ms? And KZ2 and GTA4's longer than the 150ms Natal figure?

And how can Move's lag be only 22 ms, isn't that below the minimum lag time for 60 fps titles (IIRC 66ms) never mind 30fps titles (100ms)?

Does it seem much worse because you're more sensitive to lag in tracking your body movements?

Interesting thought, since Natal's 150 ms is all inclusive of Time for image to reach Natal camera -> 3D image leaving the X360. (according to Eurogamer hands-on)

I can't imagine Move is 22 ms from button press -> 3D image leaving PS3.

Regards,
SB

 

[Rolf N]

<...> minimum lag time for 60 fps titles (IIRC 66ms) never mind 30fps titles (100ms)?

No, the theoretical limit for a 60fps game is 1s/60≃16.7ms for rendering plus the same again for one scanout cycle.

 

[liolio]

Are most of the Move titles 30 fps? If so 122 ms is not much better than 133 ms for Natal, especially if you consider that Natal has to do IK calculations etc rather than just track the glowing ball.

I don't get how this is relevant to the problem? Whether a new frame is pushed every 33ms or every 16ms it says nothing on the time it took for a given frame to be processed.

Other than that I guess that Move overhead is way lower the Natal one. 22ms I guess it would not be that significant for a game that is already pretty reactive. Kinect on the other seems too taxing for a game that would already be "CPU intensive".

Anyway as long you don't have an avatar mirroring your moves lag is not that much of an issue.
First natal games seems to go that route, we will see how things evolve in this regard.
My belief if is that ceteris paribus lag will be more noticed in case 1o1 motion mapping vs some form "puppetry". Feedback really hurts in this regard.

 

[JB9861]

Interesting to hear the dance game has youtube support. Maybe Microsoft is slowly stepping out of their comfort zone with XBL.

 

[(((interference)))]

No, the theoretical limit for a 60fps game is 1s/60≃16.7ms for rendering plus the same again for one scanout cycle.

Theoretical maybe, but practically:

While the lowest possible latency was found to be 50ms (on the PS3 XMB), the fastest a 60FPS game can typically respond is in four frames, or 66ms.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-console-lag-round-two-article?page=3

I don't get how this is relevant to the problem? Whether a new frame is pushed every 33ms or every 16ms it says nothing on the time it took for a given frame to be processed.
.

It's just that the extra lag at 33ms is added to whatever the processing lag is. I was wondering how the hell Sony were quoting a lag of 22 ms if most of their titles were 30 fps - so something like 122 ms would be more accurate.

 

[Rolf N]

Here's the relevant bit about the lag from the same Eurogamer article:

Lag is present in Kinect Sports, as it is in all of the titles we see, but Rare's on-hand technical and communications expert Nick Burton pegs the game latency at 150ms, defined by the time taken for light to reach the camera and until the display information leaves the 360 output (in other words, you can add TV lag on top of that).

 

[liolio]

Here's the relevant bit about the lag from the same Eurogamer article:

Well it pretty much proves what I said, what is mostly unnoticeable with a pad in the hands will be noticed by anyone as long as you have enough feedback (ie the avatar mirroring you).
It says a lot on overhead induced by Kinect, Ms must have shooted for the lowest lag as possible say by using DF numbers 66ms, the overhead is close to 100ms.

 

[(((interference)))]

Well it pretty much proves what I said, what is mostly unnoticeable with a pad in the hands will be noticed by anyone as long as you have enough feedback (ie the avatar mirroring you).
It says a lot on overhead induced by Kinect, Ms must have shooted for the lowest lag as possible say by using DF numbers 66ms, the overhead is close to 100ms.

Well, no - only for 60 fps titles, most of these games seem to be 30 fps, so the extra Kinect overhead would seem to be 33 ms compared to the least laggy 30 fps titles - with games like GTA4 and KZ2 have worse input lag than Natal.

For comparison with Natal, reuslts from DF's input lag features:

BioShock 2 Frame-rate Locked 133-150ms
BioShock 2 Frame-rate Unlocked 100-150ms
Call of Duty: World at War 66ms-100ms
Dante's Inferno 100ms
Killzone 2 150-183ms
LittleBigPlanet 100ms
Mirror's Edge 133ms
MotorStorm: Pacific Rift 116ms-133ms
Resident Evil 5 100-150ms
Ridge Racer 7 66ms
Street Fighter IV 66ms
Unreal Tournament III 100-133ms
WipEout HD 84
Burnout Paradise 67ms
BioShock (frame-locked) 133ms
BioShock (unlocked) as low as 67ms
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 67ms-84ms
Call of Duty: World at War 67ms-100ms
Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood 100ms
Forza Motorsport 2 67ms
Geometry Wars 2 67ms
Guitar Hero: Aerosmith 67ms
Grand Theft Auto IV 133ms-200ms
Halo 3 100ms-150ms
Left 4 Dead 100ms-133ms
LEGO Batman 133ms
Mirror's Edge 133ms
Street Fighter IV 67ms
Soul Calibur IV 67ms-84ms
Unreal Tournament 3 100ms-133ms
X-Men Origins: Wolverine 133ms

I wonder if the lag increases when more than 1 player is playing?

 

[Arwin]

Those figures include display lag though. The 150 figure for Natal is lag until Video out on the 360, so is excluding display lag.

This is going to be an important issue still - so far the dance game looks best, but if the lag is such that I'll be dancing way out of sync with the music, that's going to suck. However, I guess you can actually calibrate that issue out so that at least the music and the dancing is equal.

 

[(((interference)))]

Those figures include display lag though. The 150 figure for Natal is lag until Video out on the 360, so is excluding display lag.

This is going to be an important issue still - so far the dance game looks best, but if the lag is such that I'll be dancing way out of sync with the music, that's going to suck. However, I guess you can actually calibrate that issue out so that at least the music and the dancing is equal.

No, the comments on those results I posted were:

The average videogame runs at 30FPS, and appears to have an average lag in the region of 133ms. On top of that is additional delay from the display itself, bringing the overall latency to around 166ms.

So it's an accurate comparison to Natal.