Old Discussion Thread for all 3 motion controllers

[obonicus]

And I'm saying it may even come out with a one-handed controller or so. That wasn't necessary for the demo because the technology to wirelessly press buttons already exists.

Also because the gist of it was that Microsoft was introducing the controller-less controller. To go 'oh yeah, to actually play a game you'd want to play you need to hook a different peripheral up wirelessly' would seriously undermine their angle.

 

[obonicus]

What i can´t understand is how Sony didn´t know certainly that Microsoft would show its tech. I knew weeks ago!.Too many blue collars without having games as a hobby...

Well, according to archie4oz they had an inkling, but weren't going to demo anything unless MS made the first move. And really, now I'm hearing about unanounced PS3 games going to still be announced in E3.

 

[scooby_dooby]

And I'm saying it may even come out with a one-handed controller or so. That wasn't necessary for the demo because the technology to wirelessly press buttons already exists.

Ya you're probably right, it only makes sense that it will come with some sort of small wand.

Hmm, it will need at least a dpad and trigger...maybe a couple A/B buttons..and a wrist strap...

 

[patsu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY

Hmm... I haven't seen that before. If this thing can run on PS2, Sony's eyes are going to light up with dollar signs if the curiosity sustains.

Would be interesting to see where Nintendo goes. With the Vitality sensor, they are going after internal body tracking. It will deepen their relationships with existing customers; especially if padded with some educational medical tips.

EDIT: Okay, video title says "EyeToy", so it is running on PS2.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I can wave my hands at the screen, but why would I want to? Pointing at the screen is more reasonable, though, but no one seems to really have addressed whether the Natal can do that.

Well, none of the Wii, PS3 or Natal can do accurate screen pointing, they just do relative movement to the camera/sensor. They are not aware of the actual screen you're using. So whether you're pointing with a hand or finger is irrelevant. You can't have 1:1 pointing at a specific spot on your television or projection screen. There is no reason that Natal shouldn't be able to do hand pointing.

Essentially you get exactly the same thing as "pointing" with the wiimote and the PS3 motion controller, the only difference being whether it can detect the rotation of your wrist like the others detection the rotation/angle of the controller.

 

[obonicus]

Hmm... I haven't seen that before. If this thing can run on PS2, Sony's eyes are going to light up with dollar signs if the curiosity sustains.

Would be interesting to see where Nintendo goes. With the Vitality sensor, they are going after internal body tracking. It will deepen their relationships with existing customers; especially if padded with some educational medical tips.

EDIT: Okay, video title says "EyeToy", so it is running on PS2.

Wasn't he holding a wireless Playstation controller (aka a sixaxis/dualshock 3)?

 

[dobwal]

It doesn't do 3D, but can do everything else (although accurate player following is much ahrdware without the 3D data to support it, so let's say some fo the motion interfacing is unattainable). There was a vid a while back of potential applications of PSEye including both concept and WIP footage that covered a lot of this. They included a microphone array in PSEye exactly for the voice aspect. Yes, Sony are dumb! After introducing EyeToy, they've done next to nothing, instead of driving this aspect forwards so MS's showing wouldn't have looked so futuristic.

Edit : Here's the concept vid

Some stuff looks farfetched, like the 3D armour. Maybe someone else can remember the original source and claims?

Its actually not that far fetched but not without certain quirks. You only need to know the display dimensions and camera position relative to the display and it would be possible to recreate the concept.

First you would need to locate the gamer's or user's position relative to the display then create a mirror image of the person then display that mirrored image of the person on screen using the menus or objects on screen as a point of reference.

The quirks being mirrored images or words on your shirts being displayed on screen.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sony miss many opportunities, above all taking into account it counts with researches as good as Richard Marks´. See this demo from several years ago with the PS2 Eyetoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY

I hadn't seen that one before. Goodness, the travesty! 2 years old and the demo at E3 was little more than this! It also explains the low-quality of the PS3 demos - programmer art!

 

[patsu]

Wasn't he holding a wireless Playstation controller (aka a sixaxis/dualshock 3)?

Where ? What the hell is "NAVGTR B-roll" ?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well, none of the Wii, PS3 or Natal can do accurate screen pointing, they just do relative movement to the camera/sensor. They are not aware of the actual screen you're using. So whether you're pointing with a hand or finger is irrelevant. You can't have 1:1 pointing at a specific spot on your television or projection screen. There is no reason that Natal shouldn't be able to do hand pointing.

It would need to be able to accurately determine where you hand is pointing. If you're pointing straight into the screen, the z data is going to be very localised. Getting a reasonable inference of direction from that, enough for a shooter, is going to be hard. The advantage of Wiimote type devices if the actual orientation is known. Calibrating that with device position, you can get a very accurate direction of the device. The pointing on Wii is very good, though wobbly. The PS3 demo was also very accurate. I dont' know that Natal will be able to have a person write with just their wrist, where that will be possible with the conventional solutions.

 

[Arwin]

Well, none of the Wii, PS3 or Natal can do accurate screen pointing, they just do relative movement to the camera/sensor.

That's completely false. Even if you're talking about the exact dimension so of your own TV screen, that's just a matter of a quick four point calibration. For precistion, check him writing at 5:18 or something like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

 

[obonicus]

Where ? What the hell is "NAVGTR B-roll" ?

Actually, you're right. I saw the wire on the controller. As an edit, Dr. Marks isn't a great public speaker, I have to say. It looked like he was nervous because of E3, but he looks nervous on the other video, too.

 

[Scott_Arm]

That's completely false. Even if you're talking about the exact dimension so of your own TV screen, that's just a matter of a quick four point calibration. For precistion, check him writing at 5:18 or something like that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM

Do the Wii or Eye Toy have a "quick four point calibration"?

As for the writing, it is still all done with the movement of those balls relative to the camera. He isn't pointing exactly where he wants to write on the screen. There is a cursor on the screen and he moves it to write. The angle of the pencil is adjusted by the gyros in the controller. The standard Wiimote could do exactly the same thing, and the Motion Plus can do it with cleaner accuracy. I don't see any reason why air writing couldn't be done with Natal. Whether it has the precision to draw nearly straight lines is to be seen, but by using your hand to move a cursor on the screen you could do exactly the same thing.

 

[betan]

Do the Wii or Eye Toy have a "quick four point calibration"?

Any controller that can point to screen has to have calibration (though 2-point calibration is probably enough, 3 is definitely enough).

You also need calibration (or similar input) if you are going to have a character that fakes interactions (such as looking at you) ala Milo.

 

[Scott_Arm]

It would need to be able to accurately determine where you hand is pointing. If you're pointing straight into the screen, the z data is going to be very localised. Getting a reasonable inference of direction from that, enough for a shooter, is going to be hard. The advantage of Wiimote type devices if the actual orientation is known. Calibrating that with device position, you can get a very accurate direction of the device. The pointing on Wii is very good, though wobbly. The PS3 demo was also very accurate. I dont' know that Natal will be able to have a person write with just their wrist, where that will be possible with the conventional solutions.

I agree that a shooter would be hard, but I really don't think this thing is intended to be used for first person shooters. I'd expect a peripheral for a game like that. But in general pointing should be doable.

I also agree that writing with just your wrist would be hard. But you could air write with your hand using broader movement.

The PS3 motion demo was hardly done with the guys wrist. His gestures are fairly large. I'm assuming it could be calibrated for smaller gestures and it was just done that way for emphasis on stage.

 

[Arwin]

In the same youtube video he is showing point and shoot. That's true shooting ... you see some vibration but don't mistake that for inaccuracy, it's actually recoil simulation (they probably should have left that out). This is really precise. I'm surprised you can't see it.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Any controller that can point to screen has to have calibration (though 2-point calibration is probably enough, 3 is definitely enough).

You also need calibration (or similar input) if you are going to have a character that fakes interactions (such as looking at you) ala Milo.

The Wii definitely isn't calibrated to the screen. It is calibrated to the emitter("sensor" bar). By that you could say it knows roughly where the screen it, but it knows nothing of the screen dimensions. You can't actually point the remote at a specific spot on the screen and expect the cursor to be placed accordingly. It is all based on position relative to the sensor bar.

My assumption, which I'm very confident of, is that the PS3 motion controller will be essentially exactly the same, except everything will be calibrated to the camera. Maybe it will ask you how big your screen is, what the aspect ratio is, how many inches the camera is positioned in front, behind, above and below the tv, but I doubt it.

 

[patsu]

If it needs to know more about the world (e.g., exact screen position), the app should be able to pop up additional calibration screen. It's like that for PS Eye/EyeToy applications too.

 

[Scott_Arm]

In the same youtube video he is showing point and shoot. That's true shooting ... you see some vibration but don't mistake that for inaccuracy, it's actually recoil simulation (they probably should have left that out). This is really precise. I'm surprised you can't see it.

What I'm seeing is exactly the same thing the Wii does. He is moving a cursor on the screen by moving the controller. It has nothing to do with pointing at exactly at the point on the screen he wants to shoot. In fact, it doesn't look like he's pointing. I'm not complaining about that. I'm just explaining how it works. It should work great for shooters. It worked very nicely in Medal of Honor: Heroes 2 for the Wii and that was with the vanilla controller, not even motion plus.

I'm just saying, you should be able to do pointing with Natal using your hand since it isn't necessary to have to point at exact spots on the screen. All of the other solutions do it the same way with motion relative to the camera. Essentially you are moving a cursor on the screen in 2D space, and I can't think of a reason you wouldn't be able to do that.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Do the Wii or Eye Toy have a "quick four point calibration"?

As for the writing, it is still all done with the movement of those balls relative to the camera. He isn't pointing exactly where he wants to write on the screen. There is a cursor on the screen and he moves it to write. The angle of the pencil is adjusted by the gyros in the controller. The standard Wiimote could do exactly the same thing, and the Motion Plus can do it with cleaner accuracy. I don't see any reason why air writing couldn't be done with Natal. Whether it has the precision to draw nearly straight lines is to be seen, but by using your hand to move a cursor on the screen you could do exactly the same thing.

The PSMC pointing works by using the location of the controller relative to the screen along with the angle of the wand. Natal will be fine for tracking the location of a finger i guess but working out where the finger is pointing without gyroscopes will be beyond its abilitys i think.