NPD October 2008

[obonicus]

Ergo, it's not true. Anyway, the article says in the same breath that MS *may* be breaking even now. Isn't it widely accepted that MS has been making (small) money in the last few months already?

True, but being widely accepted by forum-goers doesn't necessarily mean a thing in the real world. What we know is what everyone else knows. We don't even have an idea whether the Arcade is being sold at a loss to MS or not, or what sort of margins MS has after the recent price cut. That said, it's probably true since it's the simplest explanation.

 

[Mintmaster]

Ergo, it's not true. Anyway, the article says in the same breath that MS *may* be breaking even now. Isn't it widely accepted that MS has been making (small) money in the last few months already?

MS probably was before the price cut. My guess is that MS is losing a bit right now, but it was important for them to get that $199 vs. $399 comparison this holiday (regardless of the base PS3's feature advantage).

While people have been talking about how later in the generation flash memory will help prevent the HDD from limiting PS3 cost reductions like it did for the original XBox, it should also be noted that base model HDD space continues to grow. With devs knowing the PS3 userbase with 40GB or more is probably 90% and growing, will it be possible for Sony to introduce a 16GB flash model to reduce base price? Even if they can, in a year I'm guessing they'd only shave $10-15 off the BOM that way.

We all know that as total machine cost goes down, the percentage taken by the HDD goes up. Even with BR costs going down, I don't think it's going to get any easier for Sony to make a value proposition with 360 next to the PS3 on the shelf. Things will get even nastier if MS beats Sony with a slim model as I expect.

 

[Carl B]

Has Nintendo made any die shrinks?

Almost assuredly. In fact, at their volumes they're even better positioned than the others to shift production and amortize shrink-related fixed costs. We (we being the industry at large, rather than B3D forum goers specifically) just don't follow it or talk about it because the Wii doesn't capture the technophile imagination from a hardware standpoint, but I honestly would love a 'launch day' Wii teardown in relation to a Christmas 2008 revision.

That $6/profit Wii article is beyond ridiculous incidentally... but of course anyone knows I already feel that way without me saying so. There's less than 100mm^2 total of silicon in there), some RAM (in the year 2008, essentially free, an optical drive, and some controller chips like for Wi-Fi. And that's costing them around ~$240 after packaging and shipping costs? Please.

 

[obonicus]

On the topic of flash memory in consoles, apparently arcade 360s are shipping with 256M internal flash, but no external memory unit anymore. From here. It only says arcade units, no idea about the others.

 

[AlNom]

We (we being the industry at large, rather than B3D forum goers specifically) just don't follow it or talk about it because the Wii doesn't capture the technophile imagination from a hardware standpoint, but I honestly would love a 'launch day' Wii teardown in relation to a Christmas 2008 revision.

As would I! Although given how tiny Broadway already is, I'd wonder if they would bother looking into shrinking it (wrt pads). Hollywood, on the other hand...

 

[Carl B]

Good point on the pads. Only one way to find out! Though, I assume we just won't find out.

 

[RudeCurve]

On the topic of flash memory in consoles, apparently arcade 360s are shipping with 256M internal flash, but no external memory unit anymore. From here. It only says arcade units, no idea about the others.

Those are the new Arcade Jaspers, 150W P/S and 65nm GPU. The Pro and Elite Jaspers shouldn't be too far behind.

 

[Rangers]

If I'm not mistaken the 256 internal switch was in effect even for the last Falcons.

 

[Nesh]

I got a 360 GOW2 bundle and I am from EU. Is it supposed to be the Jasper model?

 

[catisfit]

Ergo, it's not true. Anyway, the article says in the same breath that MS *may* be breaking even now. Isn't it widely accepted that MS has been making (small) money in the last few months already?

According to the recent financial report, the savings they had made on manufacturing costs were about the same as the recent price cut, so while it's commendable that those savings have been passed directly on to the customers, it's also likely that their position per unit hasn't changed in any significant way.

 

[obonicus]

If I'm not mistaken the 256 internal switch was in effect even for the last Falcons.

I believe this is correct, there's no real correlation. The link I posted had a user with 256M internal but apparently still the 175W brick.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Iwata said in a recent interview that processors are not the main cost in Wii, so talking about die shrinks is kind of irrelevant. We have no idea how much they're paying in licensing fees for the various other technologies in the machine and controller. But given how analysts pull everything else out of their butts (wasn't Sony supposed to be dominating by now?), the $6 figure is likely from the same origin.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Iwata said in a recent interview that processors are not the main cost in Wii, so talking about die shrinks is kind of irrelevant. We have no idea how much they're paying in licensing fees for the various other technologies in the machine and controller..

Nothing really costs anything with the Wii, thats why their profit numbers are excellent. Selling 5 year old hardware for more than the X360 price, gives you goot margins.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Iwata said in a recent interview that processors are not the main cost in Wii...

I think Iwata was just trying to downplay their profit margins if he was saying that! Wii costs little more than a Gamecube to make in BOM and architecture. $150 in licensing fees seems implausible to me . Perhaps he's right, and processors cost them $30 to licensing fees costs of $35 per unit, but I don't for one second believe Wii is riding a knife-edge of profitability. Nintendo pulled a magic golden-egg-laying bunny from their hat and showed their rivals what making money from the gaming space is really about - cheap hardware that costs little and sells lots at big margins!

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I think thats the case to, just downplaying the costs because if people knew what kind of money they where making on these things... well somebody would get mad

But, its ridiculously easy to just look at how much money they are making, to determine if the Wii is relatively cheap to make or not

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Nintendo pulled a magic golden-egg-laying bunny from their hat and showed their rivals what making money from the gaming space is really about - cheap hardware that costs little and sells lots at big margins!

The bunny itself is actually golden and Nintendo pulls a new one out of the hat about 2 million times a month and those golden bunnies lay platinum and diamond eggs... Some of those eggs look like balance board, some of them have moustache and some look like a bowling ball using a golf club to have sex with a tennis ball.

 

[RudeCurve]

I believe this is correct, there's no real correlation. The link I posted had a user with 256M internal but apparently still the 175W brick.

Yeah but there are also Jaspers still using old bricks...

 

[AzBat]

I believe this is correct, there's no real correlation. The link I posted had a user with 256M internal but apparently still the 175W brick.

The brick is no longer a good indicator of how much amps the motherboard needs. Jaspers can ship with older/heavier 175W bricks. Microsoft has keyed the connectors on the power plug such that any current brick 150w and greater can still be used on a Jasper, but reciprocal is not true. Try connecting a 150W brick to a console that requires more and it won't even connect. The only indicators are the back of the console where it gives it's power rating & the power connector.

But yes, you could have 256MB internal flash memory & still not have a Jasper. But I think those are very few. It looks like only a couple weeks worth of mfg consoles might be like this.

BTW, if you check some of the Jasper motherboard photos it looks like Microsoft has one more place to put more built-in memory card units. The latest news from MS is that internal flash is only for Arcade SKUs, but I personally don't see Microsoft manufacturing 2 separate motherboards. What might happen is they might be able to turn off the extra storage with the bios on Pro & Elite models.

Tommy McClain

 

[AlNom]

BTW, if you check some of the Jasper motherboard photos it looks like Microsoft has one more place to put more built-in memory card units. The latest news from MS is that internal flash is only for Arcade SKUs, but I personally don't see Microsoft manufacturing 2 separate motherboards. What might happen is they might be able to turn off the extra storage with the bios on Pro & Elite models.

Why they have to be separate motherboards? It would just be two different lines, one that gets the particular flash chip soldered and one that does not.

 

[rekator]

I got a 360 GOW2 bundle and I am from EU. Is it supposed to be the Jasper model?

Look at the fabrication date, if it's October is seem to be 99% a Jasper, but if is from Aout to October you can have a Jasper but not sure, you can find some indications with a search for the product number…