"No 1080p For PS3 Games"

Who cares about 1080p!
I think a lot depends on future HDTV sales. 1080p is coming out in a big way and the people I know eyeing a new set are eyeing 1080p sets. Currently most HDTV users have 720p sets so don't care for the higher resolution. The question is, when you see FFXIII in 720p with AA on your 1080p set, and in 1080p wihtout AA on your 1080p set, which will you (and the other millions of new 1080p buyers) going to prefer? Now if for the next 5 years 1080p only grabs 20% of the HDTV market, supporting it is pretty much a waste. Or if SDTV stays the norm and only 25% of the gaming world has HDTV, 1080p is a bust, but then so is 720p and Nintendo were right to aim for STVD resolution. From what I've seen, with the 1080p screenshots scaled down to SDTV res, I'd be happy running that on my TV for a while and have no complaints with anyone choosing that resolution as long as the game doesn't look like poo. If a game does look like poo in 1080p, the choice for that over 720p is bad.
 
Well i think that image scaler in PS3 will get used to death. And so it should!

I much rather have FFXIII running at gorgeous full detail at 720p (upscaled to 1080p if posssible) than at lower detail but at 1080p. And i'll be buying a 1080p TV, for movies!
 
Well i think that image scaler in PS3 will get used to death. And so it should!

I much rather have FFXIII running at gorgeous full detail at 720p (upscaled to 1080p if posssible) than at lower detail but at 1080p. And i'll be buying a 1080p TV, for movies!

I totally agree, let's push 720p games to the utmost limits (of rsx and xenos) first!
 
At the end of the day, i've been used to the painfully fuzzy PS2-generation output for so long, 720p is just fine for now. Let's focus on what we can do with 720p before venturing onto 1080p.

Sony is just trying to push what little diversifies their platform from the X360. I understand why they're doing it, it's marketing, but still, as a gamer, i want more detail at 720p, not 1080p, even if i will be buying a 1080p (for future proofing mainly, i don't like changing TV every year).
 
Personally - and I realize I'm probably in the minority even here at Beyond3D - I'm happy to trade some detail for 1080p. (Of course it depends on the extent of the tradeoff)

To tell the truth, I expected a lot more on the IQ front from the next-gen consoles. 2 or 3 years ago, I wouldn't have believed anyone telling me that many games would be 720p without any AA, and that AF would be something that only a handful of titles make good use of. With a resolution increase at least texture sampling, aliasing and the overall picture quality will be improved for sure, without the developers having to justify adding in "marginal" features like AF ;)
 
At the end of the day, i've been used to the painfully fuzzy PS2-generation output for so long, 720p is just fine for now. Let's focus on what we can do with 720p before venturing onto 1080p.

Sony is just trying to push what little diversifies their platform from the X360. I understand why they're doing it, it's marketing, but still, as a gamer, i want more detail at 720p, not 1080p, even if i will be buying a 1080p (for future proofing mainly, i don't like changing TV every year).


Your are thinking about this is kinda wrong. Some games (I wish Titanio was in here to explain better) like RR7 look great but can still be rendered at 1080p. For some games it's probably not a problem.

It maybe harder to make more effects, better models, higher polygons, better textures, etc. It may (sometimes for certain games) be easier just to up the resolution with what they have. So if you look like that there isn't anything really wrong with 1080p games in the future.
 
The point is that if developers can push higher resolutions like 1080p, it means that most probably, RSX has time to spare (waiting for data to come from Cell, so it could also be a bandwidth issue like you say). So instead of leaving the RSX idle, they just go for 1080p.

*snip*

This is all in my opinion from info we hads around here, i'm sure real developers could explain this much better than i can.

I think it's much more simple than that. Most good developers always take care to develop something for an understated performance target. While this holds double for games, I myself even will prefer to develop a basic office application on an old piece of crap PC, so that I can get a good feel of where my application is hitting bottlenecks. If there are unsurmountable ones on that PC, fine, I can still fall back on higher performance PCs afterwards, but most slow bits usually just fall down to sloppy/inefficient coding.

In the games market, performance is everything and you'll want to use all the available performance you have, but if you don't know what you'll have exactly in the end, you use a fair margin of error. If early developers for the PS3 did the same, the final hardware should nearly always perform better than their worst case scenario, in which case they have performance to spare.

Now comes the point at which they can figure out the best way to spend the extra performance. One really easy way would be to render at a higher target resolution. If you can achieve this without sacrifices, it is typically an easier way to scale your application's performance upwards than adding new effects.

But make no mistake, there will also be developers who make the choice early on between targetting 1080p and 720p. They will weigh the benefits of either against the amount of effects they need and so on, and the improved looks that 1080p affords. You can say whatever you like, but with most screens on the display area being fairly large, 1080p can indeed make a lot of difference. Someone's argument about the amount of extra memory it takes being 2.25x that of 720p, well, that also means the on-screen detail is that much higher. Now let's put up a little formula to quantify this.

Let's take a few example screens. I have two wide-screen displays that I use frequently for gaming.

One is my PSP, the other is my 82cm Philips 100hz SDTV Widescreen. Let's pick up on the relevant factors here:

Size of screens
PSP: 9.5x5.4=51.3cm
TV: 68x38cm=2584cm

Resolutions
PSP: 480x272=130560 pixels
TV: 1280x720=921600 pixels
TV: 1920x1080=2073600 pixels

Pixels per cm
PSP: 2545 pixels
TV 720p: 356 pixels
TV 1080p: 802 pixels

So, viewed from the same distance, the PSP's resolution per cm is 7 times that of the regular (82cm rated) TV at 1280x720. At 1080p, that goes down to about 3.1 times.

Now you say that the PSP is typically viewed from much closer than a TV, and of course, that's true. In my particular case, I tend to watch my TV from about 3 meters (300cm), and my PSP from about 30cm. That's 10x the distance. That should make up for the difference, right?

Here is where the percentage of field of view comes in as a useful parameter. At these distances, surprisingly to some I'm sure, the PSP and TV take up very similar amounts of my full human field of view. There's no easier test than holding my PSP at 30cm and see how much this covers up my TV at 270cm behind it (helps to close one eye while doing so). The difference turns out to be negligible! This explains the effect why people who watch an UMD or play a game on PSP can easily forget it is such a small screen - in terms of percentage of field of view, the difference is negligible.

What does this mean for resolution?

At the distances of 30cm and 300cm, the tables turn. Now, suddenly, the PSP is relatively low-resolution, and both 720p and 1080p look comparatively sharper (about 7x at 720p already).

However, for gaming I often sit at 150cm from that TV. At this distance, relative to my field of view, my PSP's screen fits into the TV's screen 6 times. At this distance, 720p looks just slightly worse than my PSP, but 1080p still looks twice as good as my PSP.

Now I've just been talking about a 82cm Widescreen TV. (This equates to about 32") These days, that's certainly not the biggest TV anymore. Especially game developers and show-floors tend to work with larger screens at times, at which the increased resolution may become significantly more visible fast.

I personally think that with the way TVs are made (particularly those with fixed pixels like LCD), and most HD video being natively encoded in 1080p (according to HD DVD and BluRay Spec), 1080p may look a lot better also because upscaling from 720p may not look so hot. The whole 720p/1080i is hard on computer games especially, which is why 1080p is more likely to become a settled-on resolution for a while than either of those two, imho, but we'll see - depending on how it goes, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of games will support 1080p or 720p natively, because in the end that may look much better than anything up- or downscalers can accomplish in theory, let alone in practice. Similar benefits may exist for displaying games in SD - to make 720p look good on an SDTV is harder than making a 1080p game look good on SD.

In short, I think there's little argument that 1080p can bring a significant improvement over 720p visually in many real life cases, looking potentially 2.25x as good. Whether that improvement benefits a particular game depends on where the bottleneck of that game is, but also on how well the hardware deals with 720p/1080p signals upscale/downscale.

So when Laa-Yosh says 'at a price', well, let's just say that in the one extreme, it comes at the price of 2.25x the amount of animation / pixel shading detail / framerate of a game, but in the other extreme, it will give 2.25x better looks and potentially (i.e. depending on how well TVs deal with up/downscaling) even more (a simple example - games like Fl0w or even Virtua Tennis 3 are for normal gameplay not really going to require lots more effects, but will benefit much more from increased detail, because in Virtua Tennis for instance you want to view the whole court, and even if you zoom up to a character, you won't see much more than just that character - and tennis doesn't go on during rain either, so rain or mud effects just aren't going to happen).

Nuance is a good thing.
 
At a price...
may that as it be, it is irrelevant. ;)

even Sony said that 720p may be more suitable for some games;
http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/09/25/harrison/index.php?lsrc=mwrss
and we aren't talking about which resolution is better for what, or what are the sacrifices. read the title of this thread. even when Sega put signs next to some of their games being 1080, some people here argued it may be upscaled, and thus not 'truely' 1080p (which ironically now implies to 360's position).
now we have confirmations from devs that there are games that are truely runing in 'real' 1080p.
this also answers MS's claim that 1080p is impossible for PS3 games, or at least, they wouldn't be able to show it before 2007.

isn't this the topic of the thread? the question of PS3 producing native 1080p games?
 
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may that as it be, it is irrelevant. ;)

even Sony said that 720p may be more suitable for some games;
http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/09/25/harrison/index.php?lsrc=mwrss
and we aren't talking about which resolution is better for what, or what are the sacrifices. read the title of this thread. even when Sega put signs next to some of their games being 1080, some people here argued it may be upscaled, and thus not 'truely' 1080p (which ironically now implies to 360's position).
now we have confirmations from devs that there are games that are truely runing on 'real' 1080p.
this also answers MS's claim that 1080p is impossible for PS3 games, or at least, they wouldn't be able to show it before 2007.

isn't this the topic of the thread?

Of course that's the topic and you are right. That's why I said this thread is over, ended, meaningless, etc. The thread topic is wrong and so were Microsoft.
 
...The thread topic is wrong and so were Microsoft.

not in regard to the fact that 720p is still the sweet spot for these machines they were not wrong. They were also right in that for the majority of this next gen, most people will never experience 1080p.

Also, remember that they had the ability to have 1080p in this machine built in since day 1 and were just waiting until all the chips fell where they were supposed to. This is not a backpedal as some would suggest, IMO.
 
not in regard to the fact that 720p is still the sweet spot for these machines they were not wrong. They were also right in that for the majority of this next gen, most people will never experience 1080p.

Also, remember that they had the ability to have 1080p in this machine built in since day 1 and were just waiting until all the chips fell where they were supposed to. This is not a backpedal as some would suggest, IMO.

I'm talking about they were wrong when they said these quotes....


Xbox's Director of the Game Technology Group, Scott Henson, had his doubts about Sony's claim that PS3 games will feature 'full HD' (1080p resolution): "I think 1080p, just to address that directly, will be basically impossible. I think if you talk to any developer they will tell you that they will not have a performing game at 1080p."

In fact, I'll stick my neck out and predict that that you won't see any 1080'x' games for the PS3 this year..." And later in his blog: "As to games, 99% of PS3 titles will natively render at 720p; the few that come out with 1080'x' support are either going to be simple classic arcade ports that don't need to render complex scenes (think the original Battlezone), or will give up a lot of in-game visual effects and simply won't look very good (hence the poor showing of Gran Turismo "HD" at this past E3)."


Ouch. Like I said Microsoft was wrong with this one.
 
well mck, I dont know who said that but ...

A) he may have been just speaking personally so saying "MS said..." may not be completely accurate

and B) that guy is an idiot. ;)
 
well mck, I dont know who said that but ...

A) he may have been just speaking personally so saying "MS said..." may not be completely accurate

and B) that guy is an idiot. ;)


Your right. I should have said some MS (Xbox department) representives were wrong. BUT at the time some people here actually agreed with him.
 
BUT at the time some people here actually agreed with him.

So what? I mean I for one thought that 1080p is a pipe dream and I still think that I had good enough reasons to believe so, I certainly wasn't the only who believed so, infact I would say the majority thought so...
In the end everybody is sometimes wrong in the long run. It's not a big deal.

Man I would like to see that RR7 running on a 1080p display! it looked drop dead gorgeous already on those playsyde videos...
 
So what? I mean I for one thought that 1080p is a pipe dream and I still think that I had good enough reasons to believe so, I certainly wasn't the only who believed so, infact I would say the majority thought so...
In the end everybody is wrong in the long run. It's not a big deal.
Man I would like to see that RR7 running on a 1080p display! it looked drop dead gorgeous already on those playsyde videos...

You guys were okay to think that. But you would think a person that is "Xbox's Director of the Game Technology Group" would know otherwise. I mean that is what he does. He should have known better.

Us on the other hand....not so much.:cool:
 
You guys were okay to think that. But you would think a person that is "Xbox's Director of the Game Technology Group" would know otherwise. I mean that is what he does. He should have known better.

He made an error, in my book an error that was not hard to make. I mean all the signs and stuff...:)
pointed out that 1080p games especially at 60fps would be pretty much impossible or atleast they would look like horse's ass, but RR7 looks really good...
I'm sure there are lot's of people scratching their heads about this, atleast a little bit.
 
He made an error, in my book an error that was not hard to make. I mean all the signs and stuff...:)
pointed out that 1080p games especially at 60fps would be pretty much impossible or atleast they would look like horse's ass, but RR7 looks really good...
I'm sure there are lot's of people scratching their heads about this, atleast a little bit.


I mean I understand what you are saying, but I would expect the director of the Technology department to know a wee bit more, but it's not that serious.

What surprises me the most about RR7 is that it's a launch game running at 1080p at 60 fps.
 
:rolleyes:

He made an error, in my book an error that was not hard to make. I mean all the signs and stuff...:)
pointed out that 1080p games especially at 60fps would be pretty much impossible or atleast they would look like horse's ass, but RR7 looks really good...
I'm sure there are lot's of people scratching their heads about this, atleast a little bit.

Error my ass, that was pure FUD campaign.
 
bad news

wardevil is 1080p but has got no real time lights in it which is how they manage it. The game is one big fat con. Got a sneaky peak behind the scenes from a pal that workes their and it's all show. Theres no playable demo because the camera is completely scripted.

They had to right a new demo for tokiyo but failed cos they only gpot one programmer working from his house at home. All of the shadows are baked in before being loaded into the game engine which is why it looks so good. It's a con and everyone has been had.

Theres jokers haven't even got enough money to finish development oin their own and have been trying to het publioshers like atari to put in money but atari are about to hit the wall so digi-guys days are numbered......

Sony found out abnout the PS3 dev kit being in some guys house rather than at htere offices so sony are going ape about it too.

So stop worrying about if it is 1080 780 or 180, it's a con and you all fell fir it. Call yourselves games experts, guess it proves you can't tell jack from a 3 minute video, when there is no game play.

Theirs no story either cos the md is an idiot that cant right scripts. hes a joke in the industry wich is why he makes games not films. al;l his staff laugh about him behind his back when he walks around givin it the big Iam. what a joke. if i were you id buy hevenly sword. a real game made by real people that will really get put on sale.

so long suckers.
 
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