Are current games less effectively executed than previous generations? *spawn

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iroboto

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Its clearly obvious that most modern games are average and even worse looking to some last gen games even to the average gamer, its even tiring to compare... gotham knights vs arkham knight redfall or most fps games vs killzone shadow fall even more ridiculous vs killzone 2, gollum vs lord of the rings shadow of war, uncharted 4, last of us 2, infamous vs star wars fallen order, its blatantly obvious quality levels have gone down to the point where games are 900p 30fps on modern machines and dont look any better than a solid 1080p 30fps ps4 game..

ive watched olivers review on baldurs gate and he thinks npc count in act 3 could be the reason of 20fps on a ps5'' really have we stooped so low that days gone has hordes of zombies on screen on a ps4 and baldurs gate is excused for dropping fps when 15 npcs appear on screen, starfield is considered an achievement for having less bugs, loading screens every 5 minutes and a semi stable 30fps on a modern machine and the developers have the audacity to tell pc players on high end rigs to upgrade their pc's in order to get stable performance on a ps4 looking title really? do we now need nasa super computers to run this games, whats really wrong here i wish a developer could explain cause i havent seen anything really nextgen yet apart from a few improvements!
It's hard to read this and take it other than gaslighting. I've bolded items in orange that I think are difficult to reconcile here.
Firstly, there's been like 4-5 titles released that most people are complaining about it's performance versus it's graphical output - while that argument still rages on, it's a very different argument to be upset that your hardware isn't performing as well, and the game looks like something from the middle of the pack last generation title, or as you put it, looks as bad as killzone 2. The games themselves do actually look quite good, and because of their dynamic nature do have situations where somethings may not look so crazy good, and in others can look incredible. That's just the nature of not hand tuning every single scene possible. But if I'm being honest; most of the people making commentary about the lack of graphics are likely to have not played the titles. I've read a lot of stuff and seen a lot of stuff about Starfield, but my experience is greatly different from peoples comments. I would say, it looks quite good in my opinion, it's not winning any awards, but it's definitely not something possible on last generation console hardware.
See for instance: this picture here of Starfield
starfield.png
There's no way any last gen title would ever look like this. The engine would break because no engine is designed to be able to handle item hoarding, nor does any game model this much random stuff to pick up and dump elsewhere.

But these of systems, apply to any dynamic lighting and shadow and reflection system.

Let's talk about BG3 and A3 vs Days Gone. Days Gone entire technology stack is built around that particular premise and they had to do a lot to get that working. It's doesn't working like a typical NPC character would, they've modelled those Zombies as a group, so I would disagree heavily in comparing many disparate different NPCs all doing their own thing, versus a hoard of zombies where only a handful of those zombies actually have any AI running them.

Also, comparing these next gen titles, with the exception of Starfield, you've compared them largely against Sony exclusives which are some of the most well funded, most supported games on the market, and most importantly all of them are single player. And the games that people are largely complaining about, are not. And that's also a huge difference. Very few studios would ever be given the amount time and funding that Sony titles are given. BG3 is basically crowd sourced. Larian still has a far way to go to get anywhere close to the sales numbers that the first party studios of Sony.

If you want to compare games across generations, you need to compare the game type and the budget. And then you can see the difference in technology.
Compare linear single player adventure titles vs other single player linear adventure titles. Compare multiplayer GaaS titles against other GaaS titles.
Compare mass zombie hoard games against other mass zombie hoard games.
 
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See for instance: this picture here of Starfield
View attachment 9549
There's no way any last gen title would ever look like this. The engine would break because no engine is designed to be able to handle item hoarding, nor does any game model this much random stuff to pick up and dump elsewhere.
That looks absolutely insane and next gen. It boggles my mind this is the same game:kokoko.png

Honestly, I just want open world games to die. There's no value going to the 100th copy pasted base, wiping out enemies. I'd much rather have gaming to go back to guided and handcrafted experiences like in the olden days and then make every room and area look as good as that one in your screenshot.

Open world is cancer. Even the most acclaimed open world games like the recent Zelda games are proof bigger isn't always better.
 
Honestly, I just want open world games to die...Open world is cancer.
Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion

On a non-technical point, don't buy open world games if you don't like them, and let those who do like them regardless of graphics enjoy them.

And on a good taste point, the whole "... is cancer" trope is in exceedingly poor taste. Many of us have lost people to cancer or are battling cancer and a game type you aren't fond of has zero parallels.
 
I think if people want to have a technical discussion about why some current gen games are 'under performing' based on their visuals it will need another thread.

It's actually a very good topic to discuss if the technical side of it can be kept on point.
 
I agree. It wants someone to start the conversation with some real reference points though, picking a couple of games considered bad and finding good parallels to 1) see if they really are performing worse and 2) consider the differing factors that could be causing it.
 
Also, comparing these next gen titles, with the exception of Starfield, you've compared them largely against Sony exclusives which are some of the most well funded, most supported games on the market, and most importantly all of them are single player. And the games that people are largely complaining about, are not. And that's also a huge difference. Very few studios would ever be given the amount time and funding that Sony titles are given. BG3 is basically crowd sourced. Larian still has a far way to go to get anywhere close to the sales numbers that the first party studios of Sony.

Yeah, and many of Sony's most impressive games are linear, relatively short games by the standards of BG3 and Starfield. The amount of time an artist can spend tuning for each metre or average unit volume (or whatever) of game is massively higher in a linear cinematic game. Programmers can create systems for individual levels, cameras can be controlled to limit what you see, and pile on detail there. The level of tuning is far higher.

For a game like Starfield the engine has to be able to deal with a huge range of things that quest designers and level builders might throw at the engine and not break. Different planets, different atmospheric composition, time of day, 1 million potatoes, putting a first person camera right up the arse of every object and material in the game.

A linear game with a controlled camera, baked lighting, and a huge amount of developer attention for each minute of gameplay is a very different proposition.
 
It's hard to read this and take it other than gaslighting. I've bolded items in orange that I think are difficult to reconcile here.
Firstly, there's been like 4-5 titles released that most people are complaining about it's performance versus it's graphical output - while that argument still rages on, it's a very different argument to be upset that your hardware isn't performing as well, and the game looks like something from the middle of the pack last generation title, or as you put it, looks as bad as killzone 2. The games themselves do actually look quite good, and because of their dynamic nature do have situations where somethings may not look so crazy good, and in others can look incredible. That's just the nature of not hand tuning every single scene possible. But if I'm being honest; most of the people making commentary about the lack of graphics are likely to have not played the titles. I've read a lot of stuff and seen a lot of stuff about Starfield, but my experience is greatly different from peoples comments. I would say, it looks quite good in my opinion, it's not winning any awards, but it's definitely not something possible on last generation console hardware.
See for instance: this picture here of Starfield
View attachment 9549
There's no way any last gen title would ever look like this. The engine would break because no engine is designed to be able to handle item hoarding, nor does any game model this much random stuff to pick up and dump elsewhere.

But these of systems, apply to any dynamic lighting and shadow and reflection system.

Let's talk about BG3 and A3 vs Days Gone. Days Gone entire technology stack is built around that particular premise and they had to do a lot to get that working. It's doesn't working like a typical NPC character would, they've modelled those Zombies as a group, so I would disagree heavily in comparing many disparate different NPCs all doing their own thing, versus a hoard of zombies where only a handful of those zombies actually have any AI running them.

Also, comparing these next gen titles, with the exception of Starfield, you've compared them largely against Sony exclusives which are some of the most well funded, most supported games on the market, and most importantly all of them are single player. And the games that people are largely complaining about, are not. And that's also a huge difference. Very few studios would ever be given the amount time and funding that Sony titles are given. BG3 is basically crowd sourced. Larian still has a far way to go to get anywhere close to the sales numbers that the first party studios of Sony.

If you want to compare games across generations, you need to compare the game type and the budget. And then you can see the difference in technology.
Compare linear single player adventure titles vs other single player linear adventure titles. Compare multiplayer GaaS titles against other GaaS titles.
Compare mass zombie hoard games against other mass zombie hoard games.
Ive not just compared games to playstation exclusives i just mentioned good looking ps4 games that came to my head including batman arkham knight and lord of the rings shadow of war there's plenty other games on ps4 anybody can find and pick, and i didn't intentionally not include multiplayer games cod on ps4 is 60fps where as redfall is 30 i dont know about how much funding each studio has but current big budget games also aren't impressive if starfield as has been said used a budget of 200$+ million and looks and runs like that halo infinite claims to have used 400+ million and looked like that then im not impressed.

Also the starfield photo you've shown is likely possible on a ps4 its basically inside a ship that you enter after a loading screen, i dont see how this cant be done on a ps4 after a loading screen its simply a feature added to bethesda game engine i dont see what makes it next gen in particular hoarding a bunch of stuff on a room isnt nextgen to me, The only difference will be the amount of objects and variety but definitely doable.
 
That looks absolutely insane and next gen. It boggles my mind this is the same game:View attachment 9550

Honestly, I just want open world games to die. There's no value going to the 100th copy pasted base, wiping out enemies. I'd much rather have gaming to go back to guided and handcrafted experiences like in the olden days and then make every room and area look as good as that one in your screenshot.

Open world is cancer. Even the most acclaimed open world games like the recent Zelda games are proof bigger isn't always better.
It's just wild to me how much people really cant grasp that the world isn't going to, and shouldn't, revolve specifically around them. As if their opinion is the only worthwhile or 'correct' one.

As for those screenshots, I can cherry-pick terrible screenshots in most any game. In fact, it's a bit of a hobby of mine as somebody who likes taking screenshots.

This is a screen I took from The Last of Us 2, which is argued by many to be one of the best looking games ever and supposedly better than most PS5/XSX games. And this is a straight up visually lossless capture, too:

The Last of Us™ Part II_20210526142809.jpg


Now granted, Bethesda games have always been known for somewhat inconsistent graphics, but it seems pretty clear that Starfield is, on the whole, pretty great looking in most instances. Far moreso then previous games relative to their time.
 
Ive not just compared games to playstation exclusives i just mentioned good looking ps4 games that came to my head including batman arkham knight and lord of the rings shadow of war there's plenty other games on ps4 anybody can find and pick, and i didn't intentionally not include multiplayer games cod on ps4 is 60fps where as redfall is 30 i dont know about how much funding each studio has but current big budget games also aren't impressive if starfield as has been said used a budget of 200$+ million and looks and runs like that halo infinite claims to have used 400+ million and looked like that then im not impressed.

Also the starfield photo you've shown is likely possible on a ps4 its basically inside a ship that you enter after a loading screen, i dont see how this cant be done on a ps4 after a loading screen its simply a feature added to bethesda game engine i dont see what makes it next gen in particular hoarding a bunch of stuff on a room isnt nextgen to me, The only difference will be the amount of objects and variety but definitely doable.
You compared Daedalus' Golem game with Shadow of War. Aside from being from the same IP, the games have literally nothing else in common. If you knew the first thing about Daedalus, you'd realize how ridiculous such a comparison is. In fact, regardless of what you think about the game as a whole, it's a vastly impressive effort from them on the technical side compared to anything they'd previously done.

And no, the PS4 is simply not capable of that Starfield screenshot. Discussion here is impossible if you cant grasp that the lighting, material shaders, geometric density, and object density, not to mention the fact that ALL those items cluttered around are all physicalized and will all still be there long after you leave and return - is not possible on a last gen machine. Saying it looks like Halo Infinite is just not a reasonable take. Some people are really just saying things that have no basis in reality at this point in order to push some narrative.

It's one thing to say you expected more from next-gen, that's something quite a bit more arguable, but suggesting that these next gen games mostly all look no better than last gen games is crazy. It feels like we're being overrun with takes straight from r/pcgaming or something.
 
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You compared Daedalus' Golem game with Shadow of War. Aside from being from the same IP, the games have literally nothing else in common. If you knew the first thing about Daedalus, you'd realize how ridiculous such a comparison is. In fact, regardless of what you think about the game as a whole, it's a vastly impressive effort from them on the technical side compared to anything they'd previously done.?
if you think im picky then go ahead and chose a next gen game that looks any better than a good looking ps4 title? show me cause besides a few ps exclusives which some are also on ps4 i havent seen much yet and the situation is getting worse and worse, i compared golem and shadow of war since they are both lotr titles, please go ahead and show me any special nextgen console title that is far off in standards than a ps4 game besides ps exclusives
 
if you think im picky then go ahead and chose a next gen game that looks any better than a good looking ps4 title? show me cause besides a few ps exclusives which some are also on ps4 i havent seen much yet and the situation is getting worse and worse, i compared golem and shadow of war since they are both lotr titles, please go ahead and show me any special nextgen console title that is far off in standards than a ps4 game besides ps exclusives
I'm not saying you're picky.

I'm saying there is nothing I could post that would convince you, cuz you're not here to have a reasonable, good faith discussion on this. The fact that you could look at that Starfield screenshot and say that's nothing special and something PS4 could handle fine is proof of that.
 
I'm not saying you're picky.

I'm saying there is nothing I could post that would convince you, cuz you're not here to have a reasonable, good faith discussion on this. The fact that you could look at that Starfield screenshot and say that's nothing special and something PS4 could handle fine is proof of that.
Here we go again ive been honest and reasonable enough ive even compared titles,

I honestly dont find anything amusing on that starfield photo that isnt doable on a ps4 and ive explained the obvious technical reasons how, its why loading screens exists, that photo shows nothing graphically, computationally or technically impossible on a ps4 if you think otherwise please explain why what is it exactly that makes u think that isnt possible?, ironically infact its the other way around studios this days are finding it hard to make games that worked on a ps4 instead devs keep giving us excuses, the gotham knight developers claimed their game was so advanced it couldnt run past 30fps on modern machines looking worse than arkham knight, todd howard just told pc gamers to upgrade their pc rigs since starfield is so nextgen and we should all suck up the smooth 30fps on a game so average looking. No mans sky has no rampant loading screens and has seamless planetary travel exploration and transitions while so called nextgen starfield cant do any of that and still has loading screens every few minutes,

Im not interested in gaslighting or anything here im simply stating the obvious the graphics and performance standards are so low this days and we are slowly made to accept that a good 30fps 1080p ps4 quality level game is acceptable and glorified as long as it has minimal bugs and stuttering im just not buying it, im just a gamer who appreciates a good work of art and im not seeing any and its exactly why i raised the question whats really going on, where did the magic go? and i think reviewers like ign and digital foundry should raise this questions to devs cause i havent seen a clear answer, is it diminishing returns, budg ets or what cause the ps5 looks more like a ps4 pro x.
 
Once again, I am pretty sure people's memory of the event is not the same as the event itself as there was not due diligence back then for checking out what was the actual culprit for DX11 being so heavy in Crysis 2. Testing I did back in the day (and can do again with the right hardware soon enough) showed that the tessellation was a pittance for performance in comparison to the rest of the Extreme quality things they added.

Some sites did do due diligence.


This was testing done without only relying on looking at the wireframe. Then went and looked at scenes that would cause a spike in GPU processing and looked to see what was causing it.

However, in the DX11 “ultra” mode, the handling of this particular object takes up a pretty good chunk of GPU time during the creation of this frame. Why? Well, have a look at the output of one of the most time-intensive draw calls:

From the same basic vantage point, we can whirl around to take a look at the terra firma of Manhattan. In this frame, there’s no water at all, only some federally mandated crates (this is an FPS game), a park, trees, and buildings. Yet when we analyze this frame in the debugger, we see a relatively large GPU usage spike for a certain draw call, just as we saw for the coastline scene above. Here is its output:

Unfortunately, at least for me, the screencaps of the GPU work being done no longer load. The huge increase in draw calls in game almost always happen in areas where there is an overabundance of tesselation.

Hardware.fr also had a pretty good look into it, but I'm not a native French speaker.

Regards,
SB
 
Here we go again ive been honest and reasonable enough ive even compared titles,

I honestly dont find anything amusing on that starfield photo that isnt doable on a ps4 and ive explained the obvious technical reasons how, its why loading screens exists, that photo shows nothing graphically, computationally or technically impossible on a ps4 if you think otherwise please explain why what is it exactly that makes u think that isnt possible?, ironically infact its the other way around studios this days are finding it hard to make games that worked on a ps4 instead devs keep giving us excuses, the gotham knight developers claimed their game was so advanced it couldnt run past 30fps on modern machines looking worse than arkham knight, todd howard just told pc gamers to upgrade their pc rigs since starfield is so nextgen and we should all suck up the smooth 30fps on a game so average looking. No mans sky has no rampant loading screens and has seamless planetary travel exploration and transitions while so called nextgen starfield cant do any of that and still has loading screens every few minutes,

Im not interested in gaslighting or anything here im simply stating the obvious the graphics and performance standards are so low this days and we are slowly made to accept that a good 30fps 1080p ps4 quality level game is acceptable and glorified as long as it has minimal bugs and stuttering im just not buying it, im just a gamer who appreciates a good work of art and im not seeing any and its exactly why i raised the question whats really going on, where did the magic go? and i think reviewers like ign and digital foundry should raise this questions to devs cause i havent seen a clear answer, is it diminishing returns, budg ets or what cause the ps5 looks more like a ps4 pro x.

Meanwhile, back on the actual PS4 in real life ....

us3h6g0evy211.jpg


You honestly can't see how the compute intensive GI in the picture below is a generational leap?

starfield-png.9549
 
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Meanwhile, back on the actual PS4 in real life ....

us3h6g0evy211.jpg


You honestly can't see how the compute intensive GI in the picture below is a generational leap?

starfield-png.9549
those are 2 different games from the same incompetent dev and years apart fallout 4 was one of the worst looking ps4 games even at the time so comparing it to starfield as some sort of reference is null and void.. show me how special is starfield compared to killzone shadow fall, cod on ps4, homefront, and such caliber of games not poor old fallout 4 that can pass as a ps3 game at times.. its a baseless comparison
 

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The fact that you think you've done anything of the sort proves you're kind of well in over your head here.
atleast ive tried you have yet not explained or tried to explain how such a scene cant run on a ps4, so go ahead and explain why please enlighten me.
 
atleast ive tried you have yet not explained or tried to explain how such a scene cant run on a ps4, so go ahead and explain why please enlighten me.
I actually very much did explain that already. The advanced RTGI lighting, advanced shaders, fine geometric detail and high object density, all combined with these objects being actually physicalized are all properly next gen factors involved here that are way, way beyond what could have been done on PS4.

I await your "Nuh uh" response. smh
 
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