Nintendo announce: Nintendo NX

[Rikimaru]

I am wrong about 3DS, I forgot about Cubic Ninja exploit though 3DS operating system hasn't been hacked while I guess they have access to the hardware while for Wii U I am not sure since they have only partial access to Wii U and not complete one on like they had on Wii and have that access to legacy Wii hardware on Wii U and not a full access to non-legacy Wii U hardware.

I think Gateway 3DS is available for 2 years already.
Wii U was hacked on launch but hackers did not share info. https://fail0verflow.com/blog/2014/console-hacking-2013-omake.html

 

[Cyan]

Wrong comparison. The vendor security and encryption are above the OS.

Still, I think Android would need a hypervisor OS, say Linux or Windows 10, though, for extra security.

However, they can require features be present if an Android device manufacturer wants to include the Android Play store without user intervention. And running an Android device without access to that isn't a very good idea. So, Google can require manufacturers to do what they want in a round about manner. They've used that to muscle in some features/software that OEMs hadn't included in past devices, but have include after those features were mandatory if the OEM wishes to include the Android Play Store..

Regards,
SB

That's one of the things I don't like about Android, my phone has a lot of software that I can't uninstall but I don't use and don't want to have.

 

[Rikimaru]

Still, I think Android would need a hypervisor OS, say Linux or Windows 10, though, for extra security..

What? Locked bootloader and encrypted image is sufficient.
Biggest problem with Android that you need to distribute your source code. Easier to find bugs.
Thats why Sony uses FreeBSD.

That's one of the things I don't like about Android, my phone has a lot of software that I can't uninstall but I don't use and don't want to have.

You can disable most apps. Or delete them with root.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You want it to believe that it is insulting because you maybe don't know the meaning of the word hilarious and that means or can be described as "extremely amusing"

Laughing at people for being wrong isn't insulting in your culture?

No justification... It seems you're resorting to a lie or ignoring that I wrote this or both:
You can run android applications on Windows and Ubuntu via an application designed to do so.

I have absolutely no idea what this is supposed to mean.

I have, you have apparently ignored it in this post and you are prejudiced due to your bold claims that are false.

Again with the prejudice remarks.

Ignoring this? I am pretty sure you are;
You are being naive as it is not that simple, it is like saying Apple should use Windows which has DirectX and supports Open GL/Vulkan too yet that would't be in the interest of Apple as it is about having complete control over their product.

Apple have been writing complex OSes for decades. They have the experience and knohow. Nintendo have kept to very simple OSes for most of their consoles and lack experience. that doesn't mean they can't pull it off, but they're be facing a massive struggle to create a robust OS that's comparable to others, if they want the same sort of complexity. If they want to drop things like multitasking, they could do a lot better.

As I said before, should we live in the past? Were you living in the past when it came to PlayStation 3?

What was wrong with PS3 at launch? It worked. Wii U had major issues. And importantly hadn't learned from any of the mistakes of PS3. So PS3's slow firmware updates, Wii U made worse. that's because Nintendo, as they've admitted, don't watch the rest of the industry and learn from their competition.

Are you referencing this article? "Wii U - the inside story"

Nope. Lord Demigod (Ubisoft gameplay programmer) in the comments discussing pCARS Wii U situation -

@Yautja_Warrior I think it's not just about the looks. That game is very CPU-intensive. It has a very advanced physics system which is updated hundreds of times per second. Basically it requires a strong multi-threading system to run well, even if the GPU is ok. Having worked with WiiU devkits - their ability to run multi-threaded programs is far behind anything the new consoles or PC can offer, so I would bet that the problem is there,not in graphics - even if they made everything flat and 480p it wouldn't run any quicker,not without sacrificing the driving model.

And if you follow the trail on multithreading, there's more criticisms out there.

You can't access Wikipedia or are you intentionally ignoring links or you simply can't comprehend the context of these links which contain update logs of updates that contain information about what has been changed, added and fixes in each update thus you have a insight on the progress that Nintendo has made from Wii to Wii U, from Wii's launch to latest update on Wii U/3DS.

Ah, so you're saying Nintendo can and have made console OSes before. Okay. No-one said they hadn't. The argument is Nintendo's experience with complex, computer-like OSes is weak.

 

[Dominik D]

I'm sure Microsoft's Xbox engineers would prefer to modify Android than Windows

I've worked with both. I'd take Windows source over Android any time of the day.

I am wrong about 3DS, I forgot about Cubic Ninja exploit though 3DS operating system hasn't been hacked

What's your definition of "hacked" then? In order for homebrew to work on 3DS there's a chain of hacks used. Bug in Cubic Ninja is just a way to deliver payload which then exploits problems with software and hardware to circumvent security features. For example (and this is just an example of OS hacks ninjhax employs) NX bit is used to prevent executable pages from being modified (and RW pages from being executed). This is OS feature that takes advantage of certain HW capabilities. This is circumvented by the exploit. Does this mean OS was hacked? Yes it does. 3DS is in a completely different position than certain handhelds were before where you could only operate in user space on the already mapped memory. Here you have much more freedom (e.g. access to the GPU). In my book that's very much the definition of OS being hacked.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Still, I think Android would need a hypervisor OS, say Linux or Windows 10, though, for extra security.

I can't think of any implementations of Android that run on top of a hypervisor and in most cases you would really only want to introduce a hypervisor unless you have more than one main OS running or you have certain hardware resources need to be completely isolated from the main OS. Every software layer between game code and the hardware is acting as a barrier to theoretical maximum performance.

That's one of the things I don't like about Android, my phone has a lot of software that I can't uninstall but I don't use and don't want to have.

You do realise that isn't a decision that is mandated by the stock Android OS? Your phone's UI and the control you have (or don't have) is entirely a result of the whims of the phone manufacturer and your carrier. If you want to lose all of the crap, unlock the phone and install a clean Android build but - this is where the misconcepted ideal of 'open' falls apart, stock Android without specific compatible device drivers for the particular hardware in your phone, can result in diminished performance. Android is 'open' for developers, users are still limited by practical realities of OS versions, driver and hardware compatibility - just like on PCs.

 

[Rikimaru]

To be fare, PS4 and Wii U kinda have hardware hypervisor with ARM core. It restricts direct hardware access from OS.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

To be fare, PS4 and Wii U kinda have hardware hypervisor with ARM core. It restricts direct hardware access from OS.

I don't know anything about Wii U but PS4 is nothing like that. It has a LP ARM microcore (probably TrustZone) in the South Bridge running an microOS from 256mb DDR3 which only has access to the I/O subsystem. This is why PS4 can download in Rest mode (or in the background) to disk but nothing gets installed until your turn the PS4 on. Ditto uploads. If you setup the PS4 to 'background install' firmware it actually turns on the PS4, installs the firmware, then shuts it down again.

In real terms it's just a low powered I/O manager.

 

[Rikimaru]

I think OS accesses HDD, USB, Wi-Fi, BD-ROM through this core.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I think OS accesses HDD, USB, Wi-Fi, BD-ROM through this core.

Yes, that's the I/O - this is the function of the South Bridge. This is also a good place to implement TrustZone as compromises are injected over I/O and TrustZone can screen these. It could also explain why the PS4 routes HDD I/O via the USB bus because I don't know of any TrustZone implementations that work well with SATA. It's possible, but tricky.

 

[Rikimaru]

That's what I'm saying. OS can not get to bare hardware, address space, registers, etc.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That's what I'm saying. OS can not get to bare hardware, address space, registers, etc.

Which OS?

 

[Grall]

I don't know of any TrustZone implementations that work well with SATA. It's possible, but tricky.

Maybe it is because SATA supports busmaster DMA, while USB does not? Or, well, maybe USB3 does, this latest incarnation supposedly is more independent of the CPU, as overhead at 5Gbit/s would be huge otherwise I suppose. So... Hell if I know! Heh.

It's still a bit weird they're doing HDD access over USB.

That's what I'm saying. OS can not get to bare hardware, address space, registers, etc.

PS4's main BSD OS is not limited by the southbridge ARM core as such; that core only affects I/O. Other OS functions, like those you mention, would remain unaffected.

 

[Rikimaru]

PS4's main BSD OS is not limited by the southbridge ARM core as such; that core only affects I/O. Other OS functions, like those you mention, would remain unaffected.

Why do you think so? Even on Wii initially you could not do that (before AHBPROT was found). Even read NAND from PPC.

 

[Grall]

Why do you think so?

Because every function call and memory access cannot go through the southbridge, and its weak-ass ARM core. It would be a tremendous bottleneck.

 

[Rikimaru]

Look at IOS on Wii (and Wii U).

"IOS is the operating system that runs on the Starlet coprocessor inside the Hollywood package. It provides services that are used by Wii code to access many system devices: USB, networking, security, app management, NAND flash storage, SD card, optical disc, and also WiiConnect24 features.
...
IOS is not a "hypervisor", as it runs on a dedicated, separate CPU. However, IOS does isolate its memory from access by the main Broadway CPU, has the ability to reboot (and hence bootstrap) it, and is designed to be secure if the PowerPC side is compromised (although in practice many exploits have been found). In that sense, IOS is higher in the security hierarchy than code running on the PowerPC."

http://wiibrew.org/wiki/IOS

Every hardware access and some services go through IOS on ARM926EJ-S.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Maybe it is because SATA supports busmaster DMA, while USB does not? Or, well, maybe USB3 does, this latest incarnation supposedly is more independent of the CPU, as overhead at 5Gbit/s would be huge otherwise I suppose. So... Hell if I know! Heh.

The ideal TrustZone implementation is for it to operate transparently from the host system so it can't introduce significant latency, particularly on a point-to-point bus architecture. There are ways around it by increasing the number and/or power and/or clocks of the TrustZone cores but this obviously adds cost.

PS4's main BSD OS is not limited by the southbridge ARM core as such; that core only affects I/O. Other OS functions, like those you mention, would remain unaffected.

I agree, all evidence is that any security built into PS4's South Bridge is effectively invisible to the rest of the system and this is the ideal implementation. If an exploit manages to slip through, it should never be able to further compromise the security.

Why do you think so? Even on Wii initially you could not do that (before AHBPROT was found). Even read NAND from PPC.

The approach of many TrustZone solutions is that it operates as a gatekeeper, preventing exploits from being injected over any I/O source which is the only way data can get into RAM.

I know nothing about Nintendo console's system architecture but having your security (Starlet) onboard the graphics chip (Hollywood) seems a very odd approach unless Hollywood is both the chip housing the GPU and South Bridge. Modern security is generally taking the gatekeeper approach, i.e. stopping exploits even getting to main RAM thereby eliminating any chance of the code being executed.

 

[Rikimaru]

TrustZone looks like exactly Wii/3DS approach. http://www.openvirtualization.org/open-source-arm-trustzone.html

Sony wanted hardware isolation because PS3 was hacked by a bug in USB stack.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

TrustZone is a set of capabilities and reference software, the implementation will vary depending on the target system architecture, budget and vectors of attack. I've worked on several systems with TrustZone protection and all were different.

Can you share more about the Nintendo approach, particularly how the security solution in the GPU protects against attacks?

 

[MrFox]

I'm wondering... is there anything trustzone can do to prevent a piggyback probe directly on the external memory chips?