Nintendo 3DS hardware thread

[eastmen]

It looks like what Cube could put out to me. Which is pretty cool honestly as that's far better than any other portable I've seen.

If they could put a 100% accurate port of FZero GX or RE4 on there that would be really cool.

OOT wont be the best title to judge the game from. They say they wanted to stay true to the n64 verison and its just a port with redone texture work from what I understand.

I'm sure by the end of the year we will see more of what the 3ds is capable of.

 

[swaaye]

Yeah I am always excited to see if some developer will do something amazing with portable hardware.

how well does your nook color run angry birds rio ? My samsung epic stutters at some points while playing it.

I haven't tried that one but I have been playing a few racing games, boat racing, tower defense, a battlezone-ish tank shooter, Quake 2, and a space shooter. The framerate is 20-30fps most of the time. The hardware/games seem to me like Dreamcast level but it has to render a much higher resolution at 1024x600.

Amazingly there is a N64 emulator with a dynamic recompiler that can emulate a few games smoothly (blows my mind for that ARM CPU) but I haven't bothered with it. Quake 2 taught me that games with 3D worlds are not really playable by touch. At least, my brain can't handle the control scheme.

 

[Teasy]

It's not a silly judgement, imho. All games I've seen so far (tech demos included) don't look any better than GC games, and many of them actually look a lot worse (at the same level as N64). There's even a quasi-1:1 port of ocarina of time..

What I said was its a silly judgement to come to a conclusion on a systems graphical capabilities by only looking at launch games. I'm not sure why you keep mentioning the systems worst looking games, where's the relevance? You judge a systems capabilities on its best looking games.

By the way, what 3DS game are you talking about which is N64 level in your opinion?

Show me something with gameplay that looks as good as Mario Galaxy and I'll be proven wrong, but the resident evil titles still don't quite cut it as "above gamecube" graphics to me.

Geometry is the only way in which RE: Revelations isn't above GC quality (well apart from resolution obviously).

 

[swaaye]

Teasy, what is the most impressive upcoming game you've seen?

One thing that has to be taken into account is how far game development has advanced in 10 years and how that affects what they can accomplish with whatever hardware the system has. New tricks, new tools, etc. The shots of some upcoming games at IGN 3DS do look like at least Cube quality indeed. Makes me wish it had a much bigger screen though.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2010/07/0...t-evil-revelations-3ds-trailer?objectid=77738
RE Revelations looks very nice but of course the darkness hides a lot.

 

[lwill]

Show me something with gameplay that looks as good as Mario Galaxy and I'll be proven wrong, but the resident evil titles still don't quite cut it as "above gamecube" graphics to me.

Constant use of normal maps besides EMBM is already technically beyond what the GCN/Wii can do.

 

[Teasy]

It is definitely more powerful than the N64, which I think is expected at this point considering DS was just about equal to a N64. Enhanced ports of N64 games don't exactly scream powerhouse though. But considering it has ~20x the usable RAM of a N64 and ~2x more than Cube it has no excuse not to at least wow with graphics asset quality. And of course there's the usual advancement of game making techniques over the past 10 years.

To be honest we shouldn't even be talking about N64 in comparison to 3DS. The fact that Nintendo have decided to bring out a few supped up N64 ports on the system says nothing at all about its capabilities. The best looking game for the system at launch is probably Street Fighter 4 3D:

The best looking game we've seen shown so far is Revelations:

I don't buy the "don't expect much from launch games" thing because there have been plenty of launch games that have pretty much tapped out consoles before or at least provided a good glimpse into what you could reasonably expect.

Sometimes you'll get a launch game that'll do a system justice (Rogue Leader for GC or Halo for XBox, though even those were bested later on their respective systems), but those games are exceptions. The majority of the time a systems launch games will consist of quick ports or games moved from a previous system and slightly tarted up. Its just a bad idea IMO to judge a system based on launch games.

 

[Teasy]

Teasy, what is the most impressive upcoming game you've seen?

One thing that has to be taken into account is how far game development has advanced in 10 years and how that affects what they can accomplish with whatever hardware the system has. New tricks, new tools, etc. The shots of some upcoming games at IGN 3DS do look like at least Cube quality indeed. Makes me wish it had a much bigger screen though.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2010/07/0...t-evil-revelations-3ds-trailer?objectid=77738
RE Revelations looks very nice but of course the darkness hides a lot.

Revelations IMO is the best looking game so far for 3DS. Darkness will hide some imperfections but that could be levelled at plenty of great looking games. High Voltage Software are using a lot of modern techniques in their Wii games, but none of them match Revelations for lighting/shadowing/texturing, and that's on a system that's basically a GC x 2.

IMO 3DS is probably about GC performance but with 4 times the RAM and a range of easily usable effects more advanced then anything GC or Wii could pull off.

 

[eastmen]

Yeah I am always excited to see if some developer will do something amazing with portable hardware.


I haven't tried that one but I have been playing a few racing games, boat racing, tower defense, a battlezone-ish tank shooter, Quake 2, and a space shooter. The framerate is 20-30fps most of the time. The hardware/games seem to me like Dreamcast level but it has to render a much higher resolution at 1024x600.

Amazingly there is a N64 emulator with a dynamic recompiler that can emulate a few games smoothly (blows my mind for that ARM CPU) but I haven't bothered with it. Quake 2 taught me that games with 3D worlds are not really playable by touch. At least, my brain can't handle the control scheme.

The n64 is 15 years old. I'd hope an arm cpu today could emulate it . Its been quite a long time . After all the ds was capable of n64 or greater graphics

 

[swaaye]

The n64 is 15 years old. I'd hope an arm cpu today could emulate it . Its been quite a long time . After all the ds was capable of n64 or greater graphics

The only reason these tablets/phones have a chance of emulating an N64 is because the "emulators" aren't emulators at all really. They really just emulate some of the CPU and the rest is sort of a re-interpretation to fit modern 3D hardware. This is very problematic and is why a lot of games are messed up. They skip a lot of the little details to the hardware, like the microcode-powered RSP and such, and at the least it creates inaccuracies while in the worst case some games simply don't work. But the attempts to truly emulate N64 require massive CPU power because everything needs to be done in software AFAIK.

 

[Arwin]

Well, maybe so, but I thought that the PSP N64 emulator port already came shockingly close to emulating the N64. Sure, the speed wasn't quite there, but for a mobile device launching in 2004 it came surprisingly close.

 

[lilbroK]

To be honest we shouldn't even be talking about N64 in comparison to 3DS. The fact that Nintendo have decided to bring out a few supped up N64 ports on the system says nothing at all about its capabilities. The best looking game for the system at launch is probably Street Fighter 4 3D:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6530/sf3ds1.jpg
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1940/sf3ds2.jpg

The best looking game we've seen shown so far is Revelations:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/5765/re13ds.jpg
http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/7293/re23ds.jpg
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/740/re33ds.jpg
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/7004/re43ds.jpg



Sometimes you'll get a launch game that'll do a system justice (Rogue Leader for GC or Halo for XBox, though even those were bested later on their respective systems), but those games are exceptions. The majority of the time a systems launch games will consist of quick ports or games moved from a previous system and slightly tarted up. Its just a bad idea IMO to judge a system based on launch games.

I must disagree. Darkside Chronicles had all that you see in Revelations and more on the Wii and at a higher resolution with a higher frame rate.

We'll definitely see better look games on the 3DS on average though as it is easier to get away with being a lazy dev.

I'm still waiting to see them port Mario Galaxy or a game with the engine at least. That will lets us see what is what clearly.

Now something that has been bothering me is the 3D performance drop itself. I know that a lot of devs are saying it isn't that much but seriously, how much can you do with the feature enabled VS. how much you can't realistically is something I want to know.

 

[Teasy]

I must disagree. Darkside Chronicles had all that you see in Revelations and more on the Wii and at a higher resolution with a higher frame rate

No it doesn't, not even close, where's the normal mapping?, self shadowing? There's some dynamic lighting on characters but its pretty sparce and mostly levels look quite flat. It simply doesn't do everything Revelations does and I don't see anything it does that Revelations doesn't. Its also an on rails shooter, which makes quite a difference.

 

[swaaye]

Well, maybe so, but I thought that the PSP N64 emulator port already came shockingly close to emulating the N64. Sure, the speed wasn't quite there, but for a mobile device launching in 2004 it came surprisingly close.

I don't know how playable the PSP is at it. But I can imagine people playing N64 games at 10 fps and being happy just as a show-it-off thing. I would think that the 1 GHz+ ARM Cortex chips are getting very close. I've read though that only a few games work well, like Mario 64 and Mario Kart apparently.

BTW these N64 emulators seem to all be ports from the PC scene. I saw Mupen64 mentioned. There has been some controversy with these ports being non-free and not giving credit and offering source code (license violations).

I must disagree. Darkside Chronicles had all that you see in Revelations and more on the Wii and at a higher resolution with a higher frame rate.

What Teasy said. Wii's retro Gamecube hardware has proven to be quite disgusting outside of a couple cartoony exceptions like Mario Galaxy.

 

[Simon F]

I'd rather play games on a 7" tablet or my 9" netbook though because my eyes aren't too keen on small screens anymore. Nausea and headaches don't add to the fun. I also am not too sure about the 3DS 3D technique over the long term for me.

I tried one in a shop and, while I don't think the small screen size (while in 2D mode) was too much of a problem for my ageing eyes, trying to get the 3D effect at such close range (where the focal distance etc doesn't agree with convergence) very quickly felt uncomfortable.

I don't get that problem with 3D at cinemas so maybe the system would work better if held at a greater viewing distance...but that would need a bigger screen and longer arms.

 

[Teasy]

Simon F, did you try moving the slider at the side? The slider moves the two images closer together or further apart in game space. So if you set it at its highest level while each image is still going directly into each eye the two images can look further apart then your brain is used to.

I had that problem to a small degree when I first tried it. I could see the 3D on the top setting but it just felt uncomfortable, I just moved the slider down a bit and it then felt natural. Now after using it for a while the top setting also feels fine.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

In the cinema you are wearing you have to wear glasses. I hear the point at which the screen is comfortable to look at depends on the person. Some seem to preffer holding it close, while for others it works better if they hold it a bit further.

Still didn't get the chance to play on the 3ds. Thought there would be tons of stores that would have one on display in Japan. And they have. They just don't have them turned! Kinda makes it useless to put it on display than if you ask me...

 

[Teasy]

I hear the point at which the screen is comfortable to look at depends on the person. Some seem to preffer holding it close, while for others it works better if they hold it a bit further.

It will depend on the person, but the best way to fix not being able to see the effect comfortably is to move the slider at the side, rather then moving the screen closer/further away. If you can see the two separate images but the effect isn't comfortable it means the two images are being rendered further apart then your brain is used to at that distance. Moving the screen further away will fix it, but also dropping the slider will fix it, because it'll make the two images look like they're closer together.

Luckily for me I don't really have to touch the slider or have the screen at any particular distance, the effect just works at pretty much any distance on any setting and feels comfortable (though on my very first use the top setting didn't feel comfortable). I suppose my brain is just less picky then some, maybe because I'm used to looking at wacky 3D stuff like Magic Eye for hours

 

[Simon F]

Simon F, did you try moving the slider at the side? The slider moves the two images closer together or further apart in game space. So if you set it at its highest level while each image is still going directly into each eye the two images can look further apart then your brain is used to.
.

Yes I did mess about with the slider but as it became uncomfortable, I went off and started playing with iPad2s. It's possibly just my eyes gettin' old

 

[swaaye]

Playing with the 3DS reminded me of those books with 3D patterns where you need to focus your eyes in the right way to see the 3D. Once I find the 3D focus "spot" it is more comfortable. It's similar with the 3DS but I'm still not sure what would happen if I stared at that for an hour or so.

The 3D effect is very cool though. I think I may pick up a 3DS once more games come out. I'm avoiding being an early Nintendo adopter again after Wii.

 

[lilbroK]

No it doesn't, not even close, where's the normal mapping?, self shadowing? There's some dynamic lighting on characters but its pretty sparce and mostly levels look quite flat. It simply doesn't do everything Revelations does and I don't see anything it does that Revelations doesn't. Its also an on rails shooter, which makes quite a difference.

There is no need for hositility. I'm just presenting my opinions and observations. I will not dispute your claims to the Darkside Chronicles not having normal mapping or self shadowing as it is obvious that the developers didn't implement those things( we already know that they can be done on the system through other games.) I must disagree with the flats and sparse statement however as Revelations seems to fit this bill far better.

Also, I'm not talking about the games from a preferential standpoint as I probably like Darkside Chronicles even less than you. I'm referring to the technical aspects. What genre of game it is makes no difference on that front.

When I said it looked better I looked at it as a whole package(polygon count, number of enemies on screen, texture quality, fps and so on).

This is what I was referring to.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2010/342/997778_20101208_screen002.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2009/196/reviews/958780_20090716_screen004.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2010/342/997778_20101208_screen008.jpg
http://images.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/146527_S/Resident-Evil-The-Darkside-Chronicles-Impressions.jpg

Could you show me two RE 3DS in game screen that pass these three in quality? I will be impressed.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2009/117/958780_20090428_screen011.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2009/196/reviews/958780_20090716_screen003.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2009/152/58780_20090602_screen006.jpg


As it stands now the only thing I see the 3DS having an advantage over the Wii with is the ease at which it can produce texture effects. I could be wrong though. I'm still waiting for someone to fully crack open the architecture and it features then lay them out flat.

What is the status on that 3D vs. Non-3D performance question?