NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

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My point is that the Halo, GOW, Uncharted of this world would still exist, exclusively on each console, even if the two boxes had the same tech inside.

Move, Kinect, internet services would still exist and be differentiators on each platform, even if the two boxes have the same CPU-GPU-RAM configuration.

That's my point. Are people still buying into the platforms because of the processors and amount of memory inside? No, they buy them because of a particular preference in first party games, and differencies in internet and peripherals.

At the same time, having the same tech would seriously make third party game development a breeze. Maybe not driving prices down, but surely there would be a benefit?
 
london-boy said:
My point is that the Halo, GOW, Uncharted of this world would still exist, exclusively on each console, even if the two boxes had the same tech inside.

Move, Kinect, internet services would still exist and be differentiators on each platform, even if the two boxes have the same CPU-GPU-RAM configuration.

That's my point. Are people still buying into the platforms because of the processors and amount of memory inside? No, they buy them because of a particular preference in first party games, and differencies in internet and peripherals.

At the same time, having the same tech would seriously make third party game development a breeze. Maybe not driving prices down, but surely there would be a benefit?
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I was talking about the "Orbis=gaming machine and Durango=Kinect machine".
 
XpiderMX said:
I agree, but it is "risky", you can't ignore a market as "hardcores", just look the Kinect games sales, it can't compare to Halo, Gears or Forza, while the best Kinect game sales are ~2M (just 2 or 3 games), the best core game sales are 4~5M.

If "core" gamers end choosing PS4, the third parties will not be happy.
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How so? Are you saying that 3rd party devs are just MS fanboys?
 
Rangers said:
so everybody uses their physics hardware to add more non-interactive gfx just a different kind...love it :p
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Since when are the particle effects non-interactive? All you have to do is watch the PhysX demos to know what they are talking about.

Making games 'look better' isn't just going to be about being the sharpest if GPGPU has it's way.
 
Brad Grenz said:
What we have is a situation where people on one side of the divide say, "that's not what the rumors indicate" and the people on the other side who say "maybe there's secret magic inside!" It's not hard to suss out which of those parties to be dismissive of. This isn't a political campaign. We don't have to be fair and balanced or offer equal air time. If your argument requires secret technologies that violate the laws of physics and mathematics we have no reason to take them seriously.

I think your main problem is there aren't really any drawbacks to the Orbis design as we understand it. Most of your list are literally the invention of people who began with the premise that Orbis can't be more powerful than Durango and, at the same time as they invented theoretical advantages Durango may have, concocted theoretical deficiencies in the Orbis design. There are no credible rumors to that effect, only the idle speculation of partisans.

As for the "fanciful" PS4 theories. I haven't seen anyone insisting Orbis must contain secret ARM cores or additional OS memory. Mostly it's just drive byes from people wondering why Sony didn't add special OS memory. Anyone suggesting that seriously is a fool, and I have on multiple occasions attempted to disabuse them of the notion. Adding LPDDR in some crazy place is neither cheap or easy, nor is it even desirable.
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Agree 100%
 
Brad Grenz said:
What we have is a situation where people on one side of the divide say, "that's not what the rumors indicate" and the people on the other side who say "maybe there's secret magic inside!" It's not hard to suss out which of those parties to be dismissive of. This isn't a political campaign. We don't have to be fair and balanced or offer equal air time. If your argument requires secret technologies that violate the laws of physics and mathematics we have no reason to take them seriously.

I think your main problem is there aren't really any drawbacks to the Orbis design as we understand it. Most of your list are literally the invention of people who began with the premise that Orbis can't be more powerful than Durango and, at the same time as they invented theoretical advantages Durango may have, concocted theoretical deficiencies in the Orbis design. There are no credible rumors to that effect, only the idle speculation of partisans.

As for the "fanciful" PS4 theories. I haven't seen anyone insisting Orbis must contain secret ARM cores or additional OS memory. Mostly it's just drive byes from people wondering why Sony didn't add special OS memory. Anyone suggesting that seriously is a fool, and I have on multiple occasions attempted to disabuse them of the notion. Adding LPDDR in some crazy place is neither cheap or easy, nor is it even desirable.
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I agree completely. all this "secret sauce" bullshit really needs to stop.
 
Brad Grenz said:
As for the "fanciful" PS4 theories. I haven't seen anyone insisting Orbis must contain secret ARM cores or additional OS memory.
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That's not true, I brought up crazy stuff repeatedly about the PS4, but it was the speculation thread so I guess it's okay :LOL:
This time we are narrowing these things, so there's less margin to speculate.
 
Brad Grenz said:
What we have is a situation where people on one side of the divide say, "that's not what the rumors indicate" and the people on the other side who say "maybe there's secret magic inside!"
Click to expand...

But that's not a completely accurate summary, because there are sources who have claimed in the past and others who are currently claiming that 3rd parties view the performance of these machines to be roughly equivalent. So while I'm not saying it's not valid to put that claim up to critical scrutiny and have a discussion centered around that I don't think a discussion centered around assuming that claim is true and then trying to determine how that might be possible is any less valid.

Ultimately, since every piece of information we have is unofficial, I don't think anyone should feel they can definitively say what is credible and what is not. Especially in this case where there's such an obvious alignment between which posters do and don't view the parity claims to be credible and where those poster's console preferences lie.

This is a technical forum, if you want to argue that a person's speculation is invalid, do it on those grounds.
 
Bagel seed said:
Actually it was going pretty well until all the "well this guy said this and that guy said that and like omg can you believe the nerve of some guys to say that stuff and how can some of you believe that stuff!!!" started.

But maybe that's what this thread is for.
Click to expand...

This thread is basically a toilet for all of those who are willing spew their offense, except right now it's coming from the mouth instead of the other end.

There are people who say 'there is not enough information' and then simultaneously use wild assumptions about each architecture to downplay one system and favour the other simply based on their preference, and frankly it's pretty easy to spot out who is doing it... every time one person bothers to try to be objective based on what we 'think' we know, another has to take pure offense simply because of their obvious preference to one or the other console. It's a waste of time.

If we don't know, we shouldn't even bother comparing in the first place and just look at the rumours for each console on their own merit. We obviously don't know enough about either console. Based on what we DO know, there is one discussion to be had about theoretical performance of each, but that's it. Some people are taking it beyond that as people saying that there is in fact a real and tangible way to compare the two systems, but there isn't.

Basically Grenz is right, there's too much politico going on in this thread for absolutely no reason. This thread has become the waste bucket of the console forum, and all it really does is take away from the discussions about the individual consoles from their respective threads which would probably be constructive. This is just a mix of of a little hypothesis and a lot of nonsense.
 
Iherre alluded to the "secret sauce" here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46145528&postcount=5459

Aegis has confirmed we're still missing pieces of the puzzle. So, while people may be wildly overestimating what it can do, it does seem there is some "secret sauce" still missing from the equation.

We don't know the full story yet, and the developers who could tell us, are still under NDA. All of all the rumors we've heard about what developers may have said, none of those rumors was that Orbis was appreciably more powerful. We've heard rumors that Durango was more powerful, but those have been replaced more recently by rumors that they are about equal, or one excels where another doesn't and vice versa.

Thus, we are trying to reconcile the 1.84TF and 1.23TF numbers with incomplete specs but whispers that say the disparity isn't that bad. So, while I would discredit people as not knowing what's technically realistic from this "sauce", I won't dismiss the concept out of hand because so many are latching onto it and expecting more than its capable of providing.
 
Brad Grenz said:
Well, if you aren't consuming peak bandwidth when you write to the embedded memory in that situation (say for a 30fps 1080p game), the left over is essentially "wasted" (to the tune of something like half your ESRAM bandwidth). And it's unlikely all your buffers will fit in 32MB if you're going for 1080p anyway. If it works like the 360, your final frame still need to end up in main memory before it can be displayed, too. Plus how are you supposed to use the ESRAM as GPGPU special sauce if you never copy working data in?
Click to expand...

if you hit continuosly peak BW you have to recode better.

32 GB is enough for a 1080P 32 bit MSAA 2x framebuffer, if you don't believe, do the math, no tiling needed.

you don't have to copy nothing from ram to eSRAM because the ram feeds gpu (or cpu) and then gpu writes in eSRAM

anexanhume said:
Iherre alluded to the "secret sauce" here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=5459

Aegis has confirmed we're still missing pieces of the puzzle. So, while people may be wildly overestimating what it can do, it does seem there is some "secret sauce" still missing from the equation.
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some people are nervy to admit that durango can be a good system, only PS is allowed to destroy all the rest. childish toughts.
if rumors points some good for PS = Bible
if rumors points some good for xbox = are only stupid rumors

forgetting that the same rumor that give to orbis 50%+ in CU's number, talks about the special sauce of durango and the 170 GB/s COMBINATED BW od ram and eSRAM

decide, or all rumors can be discussed, or we have nothing at all to discute, you can't choose the one that makes shine your hopes.
 
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XpiderMX said:
I agree, but it is "risky", you can't ignore a market as "hardcores", just look the Kinect games sales, it can't compare to Halo, Gears or Forza, while the best Kinect game sales are ~2M (just 2 or 3 games), the best core game sales are 4~5M.
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Nintendo says "Hi"
XpiderMX said:
Third-party games sales depends on user base.
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If core gamers are buying PS4s the userbase will be higher on that, so why would devs/publishers give a crap? In fact they will be licking their lips because Microsoft will be throwing money at them to get exclusive content to make up for any head to head comparison disadvantages their version has against playstation.

And it's not like the rumoured specs mean the xbox is going to have "wii" type games, they will be the same games multiplatform games that playstation has, they just, potentially, won't look quite as good.

Big f'in deal.
 
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As Proelite (an MS employee if I remember correctly but not in the XBOX division) said previously, the Durango design philosophy could be the opposite of just "throw more power at it". They could have retrofit their GPU to their memory solution. If the system has an effective bandwidth of 85 GB/s or so, why not just have a GPU with only the number of CUs that, if used near 100% efficiency, could be fed at all times. In this instance, it would be 12 CUs used mostly (if not exclusively) for rendering.

Boosts in compute power could be made via beefing up the CPU and/or adding specialized CPU co-processors.
 
patsu said:
They both should have unannounced secret sauces. ^_^

In any case, if low level GPU access is given to the devs, it is already tricky to compare GPU behavior/performance between console and PC.
Click to expand...

Yes, I believe that to be the case from what aegies said on twitter yesterday.
 
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