Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

[3dilettante]

This is very true on PC and even more so on current generation consoles.

How if at all do you think it will compare with a good controller and very tight IO path, allowing dependable access to the drive at say 50 to 75% of its theoretical maximum?

It sounds like not only will the drive itself be much faster than current gen HDDs but the whole access path is refined to eliminate bottlenecks that exist on pc say.

If some of the claims in patents like the one Sony filed are implemented, it can do a lot to shave off the lead time that deters more fine-grained loading or unloading of resources, and for the more conservative amount of extra buffering.
Making it low-overhead and reliably fast is important to get developers to buy into optimizing for it, although this may be challenging if cross-platform or cross-generation compatibility are concerns. Something with high peak numbers but hidden glass jaws can lead to underutilization of the features, as worst-case behaviors can often rule out ostensibly superior choices in order to provide consistency.
The tighter tolerances may be a risk factor for the hardware designers if they are making a lot of custom choices, since there won't be fat timing margins to hide bugs or weak points in.

 

[anexanhume]

If some of the claims in patents like the one Sony filed are implemented, it can do a lot to shave off the lead time that deters more fine-grained loading or unloading of resources, and for the more conservative amount of extra buffering.
Making it low-overhead and reliably fast is important to get developers to buy into optimizing for it, although this may be challenging if cross-platform or cross-generation compatibility are concerns. Something with high peak numbers but hidden glass jaws can lead to underutilization of the features, as worst-case behaviors can often rule out ostensibly superior choices in order to provide consistency.
The tighter tolerances may be a risk factor for the hardware designers if they are making a lot of custom choices, since there won't be fat timing margins to hide bugs or weak points in.

Console design is a never-ending quest to create new bottlenecks.

 

[milk]

Solid state storage is a poor substitute for DRAM. It's faster than a spinning disk, but still orders of magnitude too slow or lacking endurance.

That's unquestionbly true for an equal quantity scenario. But if you have to chose between say 24GB DRAM on it's own vs. 16GB DRAM + 100GB Solid State Scratchpad, which is better is not as obvious.
The numbers above are totally hypothetical and out of my ass, but they are meant to aproximate (if only in spirit at least) the kind of tradeoffs that are possible in a similar budget.

 

[Cyan]

The guy knows his stuff. Lisa Su mentioned in the E3 that Scarlett isn't only a AMD machine with AMD technology, but custom hardware, a collaboration between AMD and MS to create the definitive gaming machine.

https://wccftech.com/intel-poaches-chief-architect-of-xbox-one-and-scorpio-socs-john-sell/

John will be working on security for Intel architecture, graphics and software. In other words, this guy has been picked up by Raja Koduri – who is chief architect at Intel right now.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This has been raised elsewhere. Not sure what the discussion is supposed to be. What's the relevance to consoles?

 

[AlNom]

I'd guess his work was done on Scarlett, so he moved on. "Poach" just seems sensationalist.

 

[Cyan]

This has been raised elsewhere. Not sure what the discussion is supposed to be. What's the relevance to consoles?

the relevance is that he has managed to complete his work in Scarlett before leaving so whatever the actual outcome is, it is his creature.

I'd guess his work was done on Scarlett, so he moved on. "Poach" just seems sensationalist.

imho, a headline should never be for the fainthearted

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Lisa Su mentioned in the E3 that Scarlett isn't only a AMD machine with AMD technology, but custom hardware, a collaboration between AMD and MS to create the definitive gaming machine.

Would she have said the opposite about any of the other 6 semi-custom SoCs that have released in consoles so far?

 

[MrFox]

I am not familiar with that name, was he the main designer of the platform?

I'm trying to imagine the internet meltdown if Mark Cerny was leaving sony and moving to Intel. It's probably nothing as dramatic here.

We're still 18 months to launch, there's a massive amount of engineering to do...

 

[Globalisateur]

I am not familiar with that name, was he the main designer of the platform?

I'm trying to imagine the internet meltdown if Mark Cerny was leaving sony and moving to Intel. It's probably nothing as dramatic here.

We're still 18 months to launch, there's a massive amount of engineering to do...

Cerny is independant and he isn't an employee of Sony. I don't think he would want to work for Intel (and I wouldn't be surprised to hear Intel did try to hire him).

 

[Malo]

I'd guess his work was done on Scarlett, so he moved on. "Poach" just seems sensationalist.

It does. Did anyone get their panties in a twist when Jim Keller moved on after Zen?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm trying to imagine the internet meltdown if Mark Cerny was leaving sony and moving to Intel. It's probably nothing as dramatic here.

Mark Cerny isn't resident at Sony. It's kinda curious that he's leading their project while being independent. More-so his work on PS5; it's understandable he was recommissioned to head PS5. But he was also lead on Vita. I wonder why he doesn't have an official position at Sony?

 

[Cyan]

Would she have said the opposite about any of the other 6 semi-custom SoCs that have released in consoles so far?

Lisa Su actually said that about other SoCs they've been working on. The other day she mentioned PS5 and Scarlett and said that PS5 uses a Ryzen 2 based CPU and a Navi based RDNA GPU. When she talked about Scarlett she changed the narrative a bit, specifying that Scarlett is a custom machine, a joint collaboration between them and MS to build the definitive gaming device, and maybe the forementioned John Sell has worked closely in it.

I am not familiar with that name, was he the main designer of the platform?

I'm trying to imagine the internet meltdown if Mark Cerny was leaving sony and moving to Intel. It's probably nothing as dramatic here.

We're still 18 months to launch, there's a massive amount of engineering to do...

I guess he worked for Panos Panay, but he is the architect chief of scarlett

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Mark Cerny isn't resident at Sony. It's kinda curious that he's leading their project while being independent. More-so his work on PS5; it's understandable he was recommissioned to head PS5. But he was also lead on Vita. I wonder why he doesn't have an official position at Sony?

Mark Cerny doesn't hold a position at Naughty Dog with the ICE team?

 

[bgroovy]

Mark Cerny doesn't hold a position at Naughty Dog with the ICE team?

No. Sony contracts him through his holding company. He has additionally had technical directing roles for various games, including Death Stranding, Spider-man, Knack... He has tons of Design Consulting for Sony first party credits as well. I assume he is constantly travelling.

 

[MrFox]

Mark Cerny isn't resident at Sony. It's kinda curious that he's leading their project while being independent. More-so his work on PS5; it's understandable he was recommissioned to head PS5. But he was also lead on Vita. I wonder why he doesn't have an official position at Sony?

He was asked in an interview, and he was evasive saying he prefers it that way and well he worked for sony for decades. He's always been there behind the scenes, but on the public front, he's only known as the guy who made the ps4/ps5.

The Engineering Director on the ps4 was Yasuhiro Ootori. It's always fuzzy between who is doing the "engineering" and who is making overarching decisions for the direction. Also unclear who is in charge of the overall synergy of the teams, who's doing integration/layout, who's doing the silicon work with amd, the software platform, etc... Journalists and PR people like to name a singular "architect". Or "the mastermind behind xyz product".

I don't know if "chief architect" is a title that means something completely different between the two companies. The article certainly called Sell the chief architect of the xbox consoles, same for Cerny about ps4, pro, vita, and ps5. But Sell looks like a more low-level engineer (doing actual silicon work?), i.e. more equivalent to Ootori than Cerny?

 

[anexanhume]

Lisa Su actually said that about other SoCs they've been working on. The other day she mentioned PS5 and Scarlett and said that PS5 uses a Ryzen 2 based CPU and a Navi based RDNA GPU. When she talked about Scarlett she changed the narrative a bit, specifying that Scarlett is a custom machine, a joint collaboration between them and MS to build the definitive gaming device, and maybe the forementioned John Sell has worked closely in it.


I guess he worked for Panos Panay, but he is the architect chief of scarlett

The language Lisa uses closely matches the language MS used for Scorpio. It's marketing fluff.

 

[msia2k75]

Looking at what's being shown with Navi (perf/watt), I would be very surprised to see a more 10tf machine next-gen. 8tf+ looks more and more likely and for sure don't expect 4k native machine with that.

 

[Entropy]

Looking at what's being shown with Navi (perf/watt), I would be very surprised to see a more 10tf machine next-gen. 8tf+ looks more and more likely and for sure don't expect 4k native machine with that.

Performance/watt is a very malleable metric. Just move a bit on the power vs. frequency curve, and you get drastically different results.
Since desktop gaming PCs is the market that cares the least about power draw, it is also useless to predict how even the same chip would perform in that respect in any other environment. Hell, even moving to OSX where the customers aren't as completely focused on performance/$ is enough that another balance of performance vs. power is chosen. A console has to work in peoples living rooms (can't be too noisy) and tucked away in various ways (can't draw too much power that has to be dissipated). The product will be balanced around the realities of its market.

 

[borntosoul]

Performance/watt is a very malleable metric. Just move a bit on the power vs. frequency curve, and you get drastically different results.
Since desktop gaming PCs is the market that cares the least about power draw, it is also useless to predict how even the same chip would perform in that respect in any other environment. Hell, even moving to OSX where the customers aren't as completely focused on performance/$ is enough that another balance of performance vs. power is chosen. A console has to work in peoples living rooms (can't be too noisy) and tucked away in various ways (can't draw too much power that has to be dissipated). The product will be balanced around the realities of its market.

I believe they’re both looking at exotic cooling solutions to help with heat.