News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[Shifty Geezer]

Well one reason is size. Sony fans have stressed that the smaller ps4 is a huge sale factor over the larger xbox one.

1) These fans, whosoever they might be, would be idiots. People aren't picking their console primarily for size of the box. That's a far lower priority concern than price, library, performance, etc. 2) If MS can remove the optical, so can Sony and compete directly.

What MS can offer is cross-device compatibility via the Windows ecosystem. Everything else Sony can go toe-to-toe on.

 

[eastmen]

1) These fans, whosoever they might be, would be idiots. People aren't picking their console primarily for size of the box. That's a far lower priority concern than price, library, performance, etc. 2) If MS can remove the optical, so can Sony and compete directly.

What MS can offer is cross-device compatibility via the Windows ecosystem. Everything else Sony can go toe-to-toe on.

There are those fans. Just like there are people who feel an external PSU is a deal breaker.

Anyway we don't actually know if Sony can compete on price. With the Sram MS should get a much bigger benfit from the micron drop. MS also currently enjoys lower power consumption which can result in a smaller box.

I don't think Sony will ditch bluray , in fact I could see sony doubling down and releasing a 4k bluray ps4 in the future.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There are those fans.

In minority figures to the degree its irrelevant to sales and design decisions. MS isn't losing millions of sales on account of having an external PSU...

Anyway we don't actually know if Sony can compete on price. With the Sram MS should get a much bigger benfit from the micron drop. MS also currently enjoys lower power consumption which can result in a smaller box.

With the process drop, the price difference and power difference will be small enough to not matter. PS4 won't be significantly larger than XB1 once drive is removed and innards stripped.

I don't think Sony will ditch bluray , in fact I could see sony doubling down and releasing a 4k bluray ps4 in the future.

It's not so much about what Sony will do as what Sony can do. If there's a future for a slim download only machine that MS pursues, Sony are likely to pursue it to. They're just as capable as MS in that regard - neither box is more suited to the job in terms of hardware design. It can even be argued that PSTV shows Sony already willing to entertain the idea of a download only STB.

 

[MrFox]

It's not so much about what Sony will do as what Sony can do. If there's a future for a slim download only machine that MS pursues, Sony are likely to pursue it to. They're just as capable as MS in that regard - neither box is more suited to the job in terms of hardware design. It can even be argued that PSTV shows Sony already willing to entertain the idea of a download only STB.

I think PSTV accepts Vita cartridges, technically it's non-DRM physical games.

 

[turkey]

That's a lot of wild predictions. We'll have to revisit them... later...

You should have a look at the size of the XB1 motherboard before imagining an Apple-TV style of device. Also have a look at the the fate of consoles revisions which removed physical media, the gamers reactions to forced online DRM, and the current digital/retail market figures which are still 80% to 85% disc.

I would assume as price drops a second console may be more appealing for some, free to play increasing, games with gold titles; xbox one and 360 (backwards compatability) , ea access along with netflix and windows streaming all being disk less.

Niche but possibly getting less so?

 

[east of eastside]

Tech journalists that cover TSMC have suggested to me in emails that Q3 '16 should be viable for a 16nm console.

Microsoft could really exploit 16nm for an advantage over PS4 if they are willing to bring the tech to market a little earlier than that point where the cost of 16nm chips < 28nm, like Sony would like to.

If MS can bring a 16nm Xbox to market, say, 6 months earlier than Sony would like to do a PS4 Slim, that could be a competitive point for Xbox in the '16-17 time period.

All-digital, simply is the future.. Look at recent rumored NX patents that also point to a disc-less console.. And not just the device.. but the distribution model. Have you noticed some of the exchanges between MS and Gamestop lately? Looks like something is in the pipeline that will be changing their increasingly strained relationship.

Apple TV w/ Siri was really a preview of the original target that MS was shooting for Xbox One. The problem is they tried to jump the gun too early on that vision and it backfired.

Xbox mini, all-digital will be a turning point for Xbox One where the market catches up to its original vision, while Windows 10 convergence starts to become meaningful and an advantage.

What does Sony have for the future? PlayStation VR? ..While it has no answer to the mobile gaming domination that has taken over the home market of Japan and is running like wild fire in Asia?.. I predict confidently that PlayStation VR will end up hurting Sony more by diverting its limited resources away from the core PS4 business than it will end up helping. VR simply isn't ready for mainstream prime time and there are much bigger players in the VR market now. Since Sony positioned itself as the 'game console', the limitations of that strategy will start to be seen in the all-digital, voice-controlled, cloud-backed, streaming device future that MS will finally capitalize on. Even Nintendo looks like it has a smart solution w/ NX that will align mobile, console and portable under a unified strategy. Sony?

 

[Rikimaru]

Microsoft could really exploit 16nm for an advantage over PS4 if they are willing to bring the tech to market a little earlier than that point where the cost of 16nm chips < 28nm, like Sony would like to.

If MS can bring a 16nm Xbox to market, say, 6 months earlier than Sony would like to do a PS4 Slim, that could be a competitive point for Xbox in the '16-17 time period.

I really doubt MS could up Sony in engineering.
Look at beauty of PS4 CUH-1200 internals and bulky ugly box and what inside + PSU of Xbox One. PS 2 Slim too.

Since Sony positioned itself as the 'game console', the limitations of that strategy will start to be seen in the all-digital, voice-controlled, cloud-backed, streaming device future that MS will finally capitalize on. Even Nintendo looks like it has a smart solution w/ NX that will align mobile, console and portable under a unified strategy. Sony?

Yeah, sure.

 

[Rangers]

The first of the new bundles...

For $399. They did say that bundles announced this week will start at $349. So it looks like we'll get another value bundle to go with the Gears bundle some time this week. Will be interesting to know if it will be 1TB, but suspect not since it should have a game included.

EDIT: Forgot the source URL.

Tommy McClain

So, more 399 bundles.

I'm wondering if MS is setting it up where they can cut to 299 for the holiday, but still hope to sell lots of 349 (formerly 399 in this scenario) bundles (like this one) to soften the blow. Just an idea. That way the average selling price could be $325 or something, perhaps.

 

[fehu]

I really doubt MS could up Sony in engineering.

Is amd or microsoft/sony that project the board?

 

[pMax]

Is amd or microsoft/sony that project the board?

Sony looks to be still an "electronic" company, at least for a whilet. They design their boards and sensor chips, still. Or at least they have all the people to do it since long time.

And yes, comparing PS4 board design to XB1 one is not fair - than one is just the byproduct of an automated tool

 

[Deleted member 11852]

And yes, comparing PS4 board design to XB1 one is not fair - than one is just the byproduct of an automated tool.

When I worked in the defence aerospace industry, PCB layout was something we left to unqualified interns working on their degrees. It's a good primer for more complicated electrical engineering considerations and modern PCB layout software is very good.

Having signed off on a lot of PCB designs in my time, the Xbox One board looks very like something that was laid out largely by hand. I can't believe any current (or semi-recent) professional PCB layout software produced that design.

 

[cheapchips]

When I worked in the defence aerospace industry, PCB layout was something we left to unqualified interns working on their degrees. It's a good primer for more complicated electrical engineering considerations and modern PCB layout software is very good.

Having signed off on a lot of PCB designs in my time, the Xbox One board looks very like something that was laid out largely by hand. I can't believe any current (or semi-recent) professional PCB layout software produced that design.

I'm totally ignorant on the subject but that does surprise me. I'm sure I remember MS proudly showing off the motherboard design before release. I've been marketed to that they did a good job!

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I'm totally ignorant on the subject but that does surprise me. I'm sure I remember MS proudly showing off the motherboard design before release. I've been marketed to that they did a good job!

There's nothing wrong with Xbox One PCB layout and (obviously) it works fine. Nor would re-designing it make the Xbox One work any better but they could make it smaller and probbaly cost less but unless they intend to shrink the case there's no overwhelming imperative to do this. We only re-desinged PCBs if there was a fault, a component switch/consolidation or if we needed to make it smaller. On the commercial scale of consoles where every dime counts, you're probably always re-evaluating the cost savings of a new layout versus the production retooling costs - although these probably aren't too significant these days but they're far from free.

PCB layout softare generally has a distinctive consistent and symmetrical look. They will ofen line chips parallel to the x and y axis of the board to improve automatic assemby speed and automatic testing.

I still find it odd that companies like Apple and Sony really do make a huge effort to make a "tidy" board. Very few people see it and customers don't care or make decisions based upon it, but as somebody who has overseen PCB design, it always make me smile to see that somebody cared enough to make it look neat.

 

[goonergaz]

I have to say I'm surprised the XBO hasn't seen a smaller revision, I mean, considering the costs (both materials and shipping) it seems an easy way to save money?

 

[iroboto]

It didn't fit the market for Xbox One. The console is designed to appear to sit beside your other A/V equipment, which it does quite well. Xbox One does not have the appearance of a child's toy. I agree the size could be slimmer, but I don't fault them for the larger box either, call me old fashion but I like it's VHS/Beta Max roots. It's quite nice in black or white.

That being said, the claim that Microsoft has no hardware engineers capable of producing good technology is absurd. Once again lets not let personal taste get in the way of the reality. Little things like Surface Pen, Illumi Room, Kinect V2, Hololens, Surface and a great deal of other un-named projects are constantly under research and development at Microsoft hardware facilities - most of these devices will never see the light of day.

As I understand the emotions of the engineers at MS, the only company that has been able to leave Microsoft engineers humbled has been Apple. The largely do not care about Sony when it comes to hardware.

 

[upnorthsox]

It didn't fit the market for Xbox One. The console is designed to appear to sit beside your other A/V equipment, which it does quite well. Xbox One does not have the appearance of a child's toy. I agree the size could be slimmer, but I don't fault them for the larger box either, call me old fashion but I like it's VHS/Beta Max roots. It's quite nice in black or white.

That being said, the claim that Microsoft has no hardware engineers capable of producing good technology is absurd. Once again lets not let personal taste get in the way of the reality. Little things like Surface Pen, Illumi Room, Kinect V2, Hololens, Surface and a great deal of other un-named projects are constantly under research and development at Microsoft hardware facilities - most of these devices will never see the light of day.

As I understand the emotions of the engineers at MS, the only company that has been able to leave Microsoft engineers humbled has been Apple. The largely do not care about Sony when it comes to hardware.

Where was this claim? I must have missed it.

 

[MrFox]

Nobody said MS didn't have any good engineers. They were fine with the SoC, the software, and Kinect2. I think they did an amazing job on Kinect2 and I expressed as much in the Kinect2 thread.

But... XB1 have a huge motherboard, a big mess of glue logic, insane brute force array of caps under the SoC (is it because the VRM layout didn't go as planned? Just add caps until it works), simplistic airflow with a top exhaust which is exactly what a PC enthusiast would do, the external PS didn't even help the form factor. It's like each design decision was made by a different person, with different goals. The picture showing hundreds of enclosure "ideas" hints they had no coherence between design, engineering, and integration.

Back on topic, just looking at the motherboards (wiiu, ps4, xb1): It's obvious they need a significant amount of redesign if they want to make it smaller, they have no room to make it significantly smaller than the PS4 even if the PS4 keeps it's internal PS and it's ODD. So the ODD is the last of their problem. Width and Depth are limited by the motherboard. Height is limited by the PC-style heat management.

 

[iroboto]

Nobody said MS didn't have any good engineers. They were fine with the SoC, the software, and Kinect2. I think they did an amazing job on Kinect2 and I expressed as much in the Kinect2 thread.

Please see post #12047 in this thread. Yes it's a drive by troll, but I've seen enough of it from him that I felt to call him out on it. Fitting something into a smaller form factor has a lot of factors in it that has very little to the engineering talent of the team.

I grow tired of his Playstation cheerleading in an Xbox Thread where on topics that are completely unrelated he has to constantly throw in his shade against Xbox and prop up Playstation.

All companies Nintendo, Sony, and MS have been responsible for a ton of technical innovation over the last 10 years that amounts to more than just slimming the console down and improving the graphical fidelity of games.

 

[iroboto]

But... XB1 have a huge motherboard, a big mess of glue logic, insane brute force array of caps under the SoC (is it because the VRM layout didn't go as planned? Just add caps until it works), simplistic airflow with a top exhaust which is exactly what a PC enthusiast would do, the external PS didn't even help the form factor. It's like each design decision was made by a different person, with different goals. The picture showing hundreds of enclosure "ideas" hints they had no coherence between design, engineering, and integration.

Back on topic, just looking at the motherboards (wiiu, ps4, xb1): It's obvious they need a significant amount of redesign if they want to make it smaller, they have no room to make it significantly smaller than the PS4 even if the PS4 keeps it's internal PS and it's ODD. So the ODD is the last of their problem. Width and Depth are limited by the motherboard. Height is limited by the PC-style heat management.

They definitely came at this at different goals. Without knowing what those goals came first, you could not know what kind of design constraints the engineering teams were under, hence why the criticism of the product (laying out the product) is coming from a perspective where it may not matter as much as many have made it out to be. If the consistency of the design language was more important than size (matching Xbox 360 S and Xbox One, the kinect etc) then engineers could have had free reign with how much effort they needed to lay out the board.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Back on topic, just looking at the motherboards (wiiu, ps4, xb1): It's obvious they need a significant amount of redesign if they want to make it smaller, they have no room to make it significantly smaller than the PS4 even if the PS4 keeps it's internal PS and it's ODD.

I'd look at that and say the most obvious thing is that they are using few layers on the PCB, judging by the spacing of the memory to the chip. Increasing the layer count can significantly reduce the memory spacing.