News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

Status
Not open for further replies.
AlNets said:
hm... I suppose. I mean I can tell the difference between wired & wireless mice, but the console controllers seem close enough.
Click to expand...
Latency in ms is not a terribly useful measure as the feedback is tied to screen refresh. Input latency (on consoles) should be reported in frames, and worst case is a frame of lag. It's worth noting with that vid that he can only count frames. The time of when the button counts as pressed is anywhere between the two frames he counts as 'off' and 'on', giving +/- 15 ms.

If you're in the same room as the console with a direct LOS, the signal will be perfect, and without loads of interference it should be a very fast, simple transmission. I suppose latency is then the time required to send the packet data. Sony said they optimised this for PS4, so there's something in that. Is Bluetooth is 2 Mbps, that's 2000 bits per ms, or 250 bytes. That's actually a lot of data! No reason I can see for any wireless controller's encode > transmission > decode path to be more than a few ms.

This vid compares controllers in a dubious way and suggests all are low latency. Don't trust it though!


Edit: http://forum.gimx.fr/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=381&start=20
I got some results that surprised even me. On the PS3 we achieved a rate higher than 400 updates/s, with average latency around 2.3ms. On the XBox 360 the rate is above 800 updates per second, with average latency of 1.2ms.
Click to expand...
More info in that discussion (Bluetooth capped to 100 Hz polling?).

OT: Is it me or is the internet becoming harder to search? More and more unrelated crap appears these days in relation to searches. I know there's details out there on exactly the data being sent by DS3 and DS4 controllers, but can't find it. Google was rubbish. Bing was laughable. It's as if the search engines are now optimised for the mundane, low-brow, shopping focussed user.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Latency in ms is not a terribly useful measure as the feedback is tied to screen refresh. Input latency (on consoles) should be reported in frames, and worst case is a frame of lag. It's worth noting with that vid that he can only count frames. The time of when the button counts as pressed is anywhere between the two frames he counts as 'off' and 'on', giving +/- 15 ms.
Click to expand...
The problem is that the time any unique frame spends onscreen is variable, moment-to-moment, on consoles. Milliseconds is an accepted specific unit of measurement. If we're going for subjective and variable measures of time, I suggest we dispense with seconds, minutes and hours and replace it with doughnuts, i.e. the time to takes to east a doughnut.

I'm a bit busy now but I'll be back to read your thoughts in about 20 doughnuts. :yes:
 
DSoup said:
Milliseconds is an accepted specific unit of measurement.
Click to expand...
Of course it is, but it's not very informative. If 15 ms means 0 frames latency, and 20 ms means 1 frame of latency, the difference is significant and well beyond the comparison of times. Regardless of output rate of the game, the display is capped to 60 fps, so we can measure in display refreshes. I believe sites that report on latencies like DF use 60 fps and let the user halve it for 30 fps. By the time the game drops below 30 fps, the input latency is the least of your worries. ;)
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Of course it is, but it's not very informative.
Click to expand...
It's supremely informative because it tells you exactly how long controller latency adds in a non-variable unit of time. A millisecond is 1000th of a second - it's immediately graspable.

How long is a frame using a frame-per-second? Well it depends on your native display, what the game is capable of outputting and what it actually is. Is output vertical-synced or are there torn frames? And it gets further complicated when you move into PC space where monitors have an even widen variety of native refresh rates.

This is why everybody uses milliseconds for measuring time.

If 15 ms means 0 frames latency, and 20 ms means 1 frame of latency, the difference is significant and well beyond the comparison of times. Regardless of output rate of the game, the display is capped to 60 fps, so we can measure in display refreshes.
Click to expand...
15ms means 1 frame of latency given a 60Hz display and a software/actual framerate of 60fps unless the game can turn everything else around in under 1.6ms. Same display with a software/actual framerate of 30fps it's also 1 frame of latency if the game can turn everything else around in under 16.6ms.

I believe sites that report on latencies like DF use 60 fps and let the user halve it for 30 fps. By the time the game drops below 30 fps, the input latency is the least of your worries. ;)
Click to expand...
You're going to have to link to DF actually doing that. I've never seen DF report controller lag in anything other than ms, sometimes an article will include an explanation as to what that means in terms of frame output but that's very different.
 
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3725/measuring_responsiveness_in_video_.php?print=1

I tested various other games, with various results. I'll list the results in 60ths of a second, and the results have been adjusted -2 to account for the plasma lag. All games are on the PS3 unless noted otherwise, and I've included the PS3 system menus and GTAIV for reference.
Games that run at 60 fps:
  • PS3 System menus: 3/60ths
  • Guitar Hero III (Xbox 360): 3/60th
  • Ridge Racer 7: 4/60ths
  • etc

  • Genji: Days of the Blade: 6/60ths
  • Tony Hawk's Proving Ground: 8/60ths
  • BlackSite: Area 51: 8/60ths
  • etc
Click to expand...
As a quickly found example. But it doesn't matter though. Whether described in ms or frames, the factor that matters is frames. An analogy is RPGs with weapons. Take two weapons - one doing 60 damage and one doing 70. The one doing 70 does more damage. Yet for every monster with 100 health, it's two hits regardless which weapon you use. The damage metric isn't particularly informative, and a weapon isn't a better weapon until it decreases the amount of hits needed to kill a monster. A controller isn't meaningfully lower latency until it provides an actual difference in the experience, and the difference in experience is based on the feedback which is locked to 60 Hz, so the sample rate of the latency is effectively bound to 1/60th second slices.

A controller with 20 ms latency will provide the same experience on consoles as a controller with 24 ms of latency because both are below the two frame threshold. Likewise, though a 1 ms latency is much, much lower than 14 ms, in terms of experience they are identical. To show they are comparable, the metric "zero/one/two frame latency" is more informative than the ms. It's like talking about the EM spectrum in terms of meaningful bands (Xray, red, blue, microwave, shortwave radio) instead of always using wavelengths - that level of accuracy just adds an unnecessary complication to understanding.

But I know you won't agree to this because your POV is extremely analytical and you'd rather provide the absolute data and leave it to the reader to translate into real-world results. ;)
 
I fear I am stepping into an already hotly debated topic with folks who know more than me.

However:

I am not sure even frames is right for games, if we take forza 5 for example I believe the physics engine is 360hz, I assume it will take the latest pad position at that point and work from there.

This to me means in this game the pad polls more than once a frame and the physics engine calculates work more than once per frame, however we will only ever see the result in the next rendered frame.

Forza horizon 2 I believe runs exactly the same under the hood as fm5 but takes its renderer takes twice the time so it can add more eye candy and as such runs at 30fps.

If we measure pad latency from either game we will get different ms or frames but the engine should have reacted to the input at exactly the same speed whatever that truly was.

It seems like we have pad latency in ms based on poling frequency, next we have the game tick rate for picking up the input change and the we have the rendering solution which dictates how long it is until we see the result of our input.

The poling frequency may differ when using console pads on PC also.

I wonder if it's better for the most part to say about the games rendering as triple buffering from my understanding is likely to make far more difference than pad latency?
 
Shifty Geezer said:
~10% UK price drop for XB1 from £330 to £300
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-04-13-xbox-one-uk-price-now-299-99

According to comments, its actual retail price sees XB1 available for £250 with games.
Click to expand...

According to videogamer.com MS confirmed this is not an official price drop, rather a promotion, and the existing RRP in the UK is still £349.99 (not the £330 Eurogamer have said).

It's too bad that retailers have been selling the XBone for well under its RRP for ages. Sorry MS
 
That's typical for the UK. RRPs tend to be high to allow retailers to offer 'discounts'.

Importantly, it's another deal, not a price reduction. It'll be interesting how much prices drop from actual retail pricing. Might be that the retailers have the UK market well in hand and there's not a lot of impact to be made with this deal.
 
Xbox One game streaming to PCs coming in May update. Hopefully we will also have PC to Xbox One streaming some day, which is one of my most anticipated features, because that way you could play PC games on your TV via the Xbox One and I have my TV well calibrated to play using the Xbox One, so...

http://www.neowin.net/news/may-xbox-one-update-may-enable-game-streaming-to-other-pc

img_9173_story.jpg

Phil Spencer demoing streaming to a PC

xbox-dashboard-stream.jpg
 
They'll never do it the other way around because then people would just but a steam streaming device instead of an Xbox one.

Edit: of course it could be viewed as a seeking point to get xbone games and play your pc games in the couch.
 
I heard a rumor from a person I trust that MS is trying to come to terms with CIG for star citizen being an exclusive. But they aren't negotiating for the xbox one.
 
eastmen said:
I heard a rumor from a person I trust that MS is trying to come to terms with CIG for star citizen being an exclusive. But they aren't negotiating for the xbox one.
Click to expand...

What does that mean? I assume CIG wouldn't back track on supporting OS's they already are (ie Win10 exclusive). So a mobile version for Surface ? Can't be a next xbox already?.
 
McHuj said:
What does that mean? I assume CIG wouldn't back track on supporting OS's they already are (ie Win10 exclusive). So a mobile version for Surface ? Can't be a next xbox already?.
Click to expand...

Possibly just to keep it Windows Exclusive. Rather than it going multi-platform/multi-OS (IE - no Mac/Linux version).

Possibly also seeing if they can pay them money to make an XBO version?

Possibly to bring it to the Windows Store and then make it exclusive to that online store?

Possibly to have them port it to DX12 and make it DX12 exclusive?

Regards,
SB
 
Well star citizen sq42 is going to start getting released this year in the fall (but most likely it will be delayed till early 2016 cause that's what cig does) Its going to be 3 different games so it sounds like it will be released over 3 years.

So perhaps if its 2016/17/18 that would put it in line with a next box. 2019 launch of next box with star citizen exclusive with the full game and pu .

But its weird that its so far out. Then again I run the game with a r7950 and it is slow. A lot of people have problems with a 290x and 1080p with arena commander.

CIG has already made 80 million selling the game on their site , I don't see what they would gain for putting in the windows store except Ms taking a cut.

The surface will be way to slow to play this. Even if skydale in surface pro 4 doubles the performance of the i7 in the 3pro this game wont run.

It already supports mantle and revs said its going to support dx 12.

Maybe they will put the first mission pack and second mission pack on the one ? Then do all 3 on the next ? Who knows
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

BRiT
The Annual E3 Microsoft press conference thread, 2019 edition
8 9 10
Replies
191
Views
25K
eastmen
E
BRiT
  • Sticky
System Reservations on PS4, 4Pro, PS5, XBox One, One S, One X, and Xbox Series X|S [2019-12, 2020-03]
2 3 4
Replies
71
Views
30K
LiveGamer
L
A
Everwild by Rare [XO, XBSX|S, PC, XPA]
2 3
Replies
49
Views
8K
Johnny Awesome
J
BRiT
The Annual E3 Microsoft press conference thread, 2018 edition
9 10 11
Replies
213
Views
26K
Silent_Buddha
S
A
All purpose Sales and Sales Rumours and Anecdotes [2019 Edition]
21 22 23
Replies
446
Views
53K
bgroovy
B
Back
Top