News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[eVolvE]

So, from an MS perspective, what would have been their train of thought? We have an existing Party-Chat VoIP system, that is integrated into the OS-layer and arguably the best solution out there on current-gen consoles. And then when designing the VoIP system for the next-gen console you dump all that stuff and completely ignore that this system was loved by the community and was one of the single most important reasons why the XBL online experience was way better than what PSN had to offer?

I'm not saying that this is not possible at all, it just seems highly unlikely. The management fuckup would be enormous. I mean, if it turns out to be true, it would've been planned this way early on in the development phase. And no one recognizes such an epic fuckup? Given the recent years of Microsoft's behavior it certainly seems possible that they screwed up yet another product. But with such a ferocity? I just don't want to believe it.

Also, on the other hand we have a MajorNelson blog post where he showcases the voice-quality of X1 party-chat compared to X360. If it really would be up to each game to implement it's own VoIP stack, wouldn't that mean that each game could also use different VoIP codecs and therefore have different voice quality, etc.? Would be pointless to let us hear what a party-chat sounds like if there are a 100 possible ways to implement it. It just seems ridiculous.

 

[BoardBonobo]

So, from an MS perspective, what would have been their train of thought? We have an existing Party-Chat VoIP system, that is integrated into the OS-layer and arguably the best solution out there on current-gen consoles. And then when designing the VoIP system for the next-gen console you dump all that stuff and completely ignore that this system was loved by the community and was one of the single most important reasons why the XBL online experience was way better than what PSN had to offer?

I'm not saying that this is not possible at all, it just seems highly unlikely. The management fuckup would be enormous. I mean, if it turns out to be true, it would've been planned this way early on in the development phase. And no one recognizes such an epic fuckup? Given the recent years of Microsoft's behavior it certainly seems possible that they screwed up yet another product. But with such a ferocity? I just don't want to believe it.

Also, on the other hand we have a MajorNelson blog post where he showcases the voice-quality of X1 party-chat compared to X360. If it really would be up to each game to implement it's own VoIP stack, wouldn't that mean that each game could also use different VoIP codecs and therefore have different voice quality, etc.? Would be pointless to let us hear what a party-chat sounds like if there are a 100 possible ways to implement it. It just seems ridiculous.

My guess would be that at some point in development they simply took their eye off the gaming ball. There was a concentration on multimedia capabilities and Win8 OS support for apps etc.

The team that were give the network module to create were given a brief to bring the 2005 spec up to date with the XB1 design. I would guess that no emphasis was put on the need for the OS stack to interact with the gOS stack. So no API was written and as it currently stands your current VoIP stack is destroyed when you attempt to access the other. And if the network code is tightly bound around the VoIP stack, which I presume it must be to provide extremely tight response times, then you loose all that too. Hence you are kicked out of a game or application instead of seamlessly transferring.

Perhaps those rumours that cropped up right at the beginning of the next gen, that MS should have waited for a 2014 launch, weren't that far off? They've gone and rushed the XB1 to meet Sony head to head as they can't afford to give Sony that much lead time on the market.

It also suggests why their gOS code might be lagging for 3rd parties. They've got a real mess on their hands to sort out before launch.

 

[Billy Idol]

Sorry, but I can't believe that either.

X360 system is already great and proved to be a big advantage over the PS3 system, no one would change it to something as described in the rumors...meh.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So, from an MS perspective, what would have been their train of thought?

My guess is a shift to Skype as their VC method, which is an OS level function and not a game function, nor accessible via a game (if the 'devs have to roll out their own solution' rumour is to be believed). So we have two discrete chats functions.

It's be a truly asinine solution. It should be the one solution common to the system. I don't know if Skype is game friendly, but if it's not, they should upgrade Skype to be game friendly rather than split the solutions.

 

[warb]

Well, that's clearly not live. Just like the demo at the May event.

Just like any short promo like this. We've seen enough of the beta UI to know it'll be pretty close to that.

You can pop-in and out of games, minimizing them to a dashboard tile. There's voice control. That hefty system reserve should keep switching to apps smooth.

 

[AzBat]

Well that would explain why there's no voice chat(even privately) between XB1 & 360 users. I'm not going to bury my head in the sand & say these rumors aren't true, but it does give me pause. Makes we wonder if MS had requests by major developers to let them control voice like they can on other platforms. Might have been the difference between getting or not getting a high profile game. I bet a lot of them hated the idea that Skype was selected as the OS level VOIP solution & wanted to roll their own. I sure hope this rumor is not true, but the way this year has gone it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Guess it was a good call to stick with 360 for just a little longer. Come on MS get it together!

Tommy McClain

 

[bkilian]

Well, from what I know from a year ago(!), there is some validity to this rumor.

 

[eastmen]

But afaik you haven't heard anything about this? At least not in the sense that it's causing problems for the guys/girls/aliens you know that develop on the machine?

.

I heard of problems but nothing like this. My understanding is all voice chat is the same audio engine that just runs like the 360.

Ive played online with the one amd it worked fine jumping from game to game. But we never had a group chat going.

Switch time is very fast esp if the game is in memory , if its not its slightly longer and then u have some load screens

To be honest there werent alot of apps so we just jumped from a movie to a game and back to a movie a few times. Last chance I had to play was the last week of September so im sure the os was even and older build than that.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why would developers request to develop their own solutions? How can you even do that and provide cross game/app chat? In fact the existence of cross-game chat challenges this rumour. I can't see how that's possible without a unified solution.

Do Skype limitations restrict player-player interactions? Is there such a thing as a Skype open conversation that people can join without needing to be friends or accept an invite or something?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Xbox One definitely uses a different chat codec, but I'm not sure that skype is the default voip program.

So, is this rumour basically saying that party chat is no longer available? What it describes basically seems to be that you can't chat across different games and apps. That seems pretty hard to believe. Even if they were to have developers make their own game chat, you'd think they'd still have their party chat available as a system-level service, so people could chat with friends that are doing other activities.

 

[ERP]

Rumor sounds hokey to me, I doubt VOIP is even handled by Game OS, since it has to work outside of games, it would make sense to have the other OS deal with it and use the overlay.
I could see issues with services stability, or specific OS functionality, software is hard, things slip, people are overly aggressive in planning, and Sony's had their own issues.

One of the things I find interesting is the number of XB1 rumors about the OS development, perhaps it's a function of dev being in the US. I was privy to a lot of the PS4 OS development, it was far from smooth at times and I didn't see a single rumor.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Gamers tend to be hyperbolic, and prone to knee-jerk overreactions. I can easily believe there is some truth to the rumours, it's just a matter of whether it's a "sky is falling" situation, as it's presented.

The part I'm finding it hard to believe is that cross game/application chat essentially does not exist.

 

[Bagel seed]

Additional detail from fm that was missed

I haven't read a single post in this thread yet (I will read every single one, eventually... trust me). But I'm getting a ton of tweets and I'm sure you guys have questions and I'm still talking to my contact and I wanted to share this exchange.



Him: I can explain why this would be a challenge to fix, if you need some clarification.

Me: Yes, please!

Him: Alright, the problem stems from the fact that it's both launching on the 22nd, and each team has had to write their system to write their party system to handle party hand-offs from the OS side. So if you change the way the way the system handles matchmaking or parties or voice chat in parties or voice chat in games, you run the risk of breaking every released game's individual API, because you have to account for how each individual game's XBL functionality is written. However, the way it is now is a huge cluster mess of probs.

So, in a weird way, they can't fix it on the OS side. What you could do is you could write an all encompassing XBL-API and hand it to each dev. But then you'd have to make that the standard, the OS side would have to be patched to recognize only api handshakes from the game to the OS with that particular code. Meaning some games would still end up breaking, but it'd be fewer. And it'd be more future proof.

No word on what MS is going to do about it though, and with the trouble they are having pushing online clients to Thunderhead to begin with.

They have bigger fish to fry if they want their next 6-months of titles to launch on time.

 

[DrJay24]

I can't believe there is an issue on something so basic like chat, there must be something lost in translation between devs and laymen who are leaking.

 

[bkilian]

Party Chat system on the 360 was heavily integrated into the XMB (The mini-os that ran in the system reservation). It would not be able to translate directly over to the X1 without rewriting it from scratch.
It also had a whole ridiculous matrix of permissions issues. Testing it was a nightmare.

I don't know what the new party chat system is, but I do know the audio team did not have party chat budgeted when I left, and they had almost twice the work already budgeted that they could realistically get done before launch.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Him: Alright, the problem stems from the fact that it's both launching on the 22nd, and each team has had to write their system to write their party system to handle party hand-offs from the OS side. So if you change the way the way the system handles matchmaking or parties or voice chat in parties or voice chat in games, you run the risk of breaking every released game's individual API, because you have to account for how each individual game's XBL functionality is written. However, the way it is now is a huge cluster mess of probs.

game's individual API? That doesn't sound right. I can see that there is probably an API provided from Microsoft for handling parties etc, or communicating with Xbox Live, and that each developer would have to implement their online code using that API, and they would not all be the same. Wouldn't that be the same as it is now?

I can see how if they were frequently updating the API at this point, it could cause implementation problems for devs, who have done things in a way that will no longer work with the API change.

So, in a weird way, they can't fix it on the OS side. What you could do is you could write an all encompassing XBL-API and hand it to each dev. But then you'd have to make that the standard, the OS side would have to be patched to recognize only api handshakes from the game to the OS with that particular code. Meaning some games would still end up breaking, but it'd be fewer. And it'd be more future proof.

This part doesn't make sense to me. How would anyone be writing code to hook into Xbox Live without an API? I mean, were they handed a doc specifying a packet format with details of headers and body in bit format, and implementing their own? Really doesn't make any sense.

My guess is there's some confusion in the information as it is being passed from devs down through this intermediary, who maybe misunderstood or does not comprehend the nuance of the problem.

 

[XpiderMX]

If problems like the rumor are true, it will need a launch delay, I guess.

 

[Scott_Arm]

If problems like the rumor are true, it will need a launch delay, I guess.

No way they're delaying at this point. They're basically 4 weeks from launch.

 

[XpiderMX]

But they can't launch with those issues (if true).

 

[warb]

My bet is we don't really notice come launch, but it's a huge headache and expense for MS.