News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[MrFox]

As far as I can tell (at least according to Micron, Hynix and Samsung part search), they cannot increase the ram speed, it's already the top speed available in mass production.

To use 12GB, they'd need to double the number of chips to 32. If they want to use 16 chips with twice the density it would be 16GB with 8Gbits chips... but these big chips don't seem to be available at 2133 in either ddr3 or ddr4.

... but hey, we thought the same thing about 8GB gddr5

 

[dobwal]

Costs are always a factor but I would leave them aside for now.

Now more RAM would not affect bandwidth but I am not sure it would not affect the percentage of accessible memory as well.

More RAM doesn't hurt performance but if it doesn't help performance then it becomes a wasteful expense. The amount computational power of your product along with the amount of RAM will determine how well concurrent processing (servicing multiple apps simultaneously) is handled by your product. Just increasing RAM without increasing the performance will lead to a natural bottleneck.

Outside of that, more RAM allows the benefit of more programs residing in main memory (switching between apps) but at what point does the cost of adding RAM outweighs that benefit? I am guessing the cross over point is where that benefit is not readily supported by the price tag of the product.

Streaming from the HDD is still a viable solution and given the amount of RAM, I am not sure that the pressure on streaming will be as large as it was on the 360 and the PS3 at least from a gaming standpoint.

 

[Proelite]

As far as I can tell (at least according to Micron, Hynix and Samsung part search), they cannot increase the ram speed, it's already the top speed available in mass production.

To use 12GB, they'd need to double the number of chips to 32. If they want to use 16 chips with twice the density it would be 16GB with 8Gbits chips... but these big chips don't seem to be available at 2133 in either ddr3 or ddr4.

... but hey, we thought the same thing about 8GB gddr5

???

It's 8 chips right now for Durango, 16 in clamshell mode for Orbis.

 

[MrFox]

???

It's 8 chips right now for Durango, 16 in clamshell mode for Orbis.

I'm trying to verify this fact. I can't find anyone making DDR3 at 2133 in 8Gbit capacity, only the 4Gbits parts go up to 2133.
To use 8 chips they'd need x32 parts, which reduces the choices even more. Micron has them at 1600, but I couldn't find x32 from hynix or samsung.

I excluded the boutique brands that overvolt the chips to 1.65v, maybe that would be a solution.

 

[eastmen]

I'm trying to verify this fact. I can't find anyone making DDR3 at 2133 in 8Gbit capacity, only the 4Gbits parts go up to 2133.

I looked at Micron, Hynix and Samsung. I excluded the boutique brands that overvolt the chips to 1.65v, maybe that would be a solution.

MS is big enough to get the chips strait from the source. Just because there is no jedec standard on it doesn't mean they can't buy it at whatever speed the foundry can make it at.

 

[MrFox]

MS is big enough to get the chips strait from the source. Just because there is no jedec standard on it doesn't mean they can't buy it at whatever speed the foundry can make it at.

Which foundry? What speed? There has to be a reason why nobody ever used out of specs memory on a console. Nintendo used DDR3 1600, 4Gb each. If it was less expensive to use half as many 8Gb chip they would have done so. Sony is using 5.5Gbps GDDR5, despite the fact that 7Gbps is available. There are cost issues going with top of the line bins. Microsoft has the same difficult decisions to make as everybody else.

Right now, I'm seeing that Micron can make their DDR3 32bit wide 8Gb at 1600 max, that includes those in sampling capacity. If they could make them pass at 1866 and 2133, why wouldn't they offer them, at least as an expensive bin like the others? They do have 2133 4Gb available though.

So there are many choices to reach 8GB/2133:
1. use current 16bit 4Gb chips (low cost, available, higher PCB cost)
2. wait for 32bit 8Gb to be available at 2133 (lower cost for PCB, delay risk)
3. use a custom dual-die packaging with two x16 4Gb (heat, cost of custom)
4. overvolt an available 8Gb chip (heat, custom memory validation)
5. use an expensive, high-end binning (high cost, questionable volume)
6. Ask for a higher speed chip, which exists, but they didn't tell anyone (cost, risk of unicorn rain)

Personally, I see 1,2,3 as the most likely, until more information comes along...

 

[Brad Grenz]

We dont know they'd be "torpedoing production capacity", and 10-20% more performance is pretty important, arguably especially for Durango.

How often is "The PS4 has 50% more flops!!" thrown around?? You're telling me if that was cut to 25% it wouldn't be a big deal? LOL.

1.8/1.4=1.285 (~28% faster). The message board wars would be changed quite a bit on that alone.

Being able to say PS4's only 30% faster instead of 50% is an extremely weak reason to risk not only your production cost, but capacity and long term reliability. Durango is still slower, by a not insignificant degree. And if Sony employs just a 10% overclock to match, they're back to square one.

 

[(((interference)))]

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/05/microsoft-next-xbox-will-work-even-when-your-internet-doesnt/

This memo is interesting - they seem to have changed their plans.

As the top comment on the article states:

Of course, the existence of such a mass e-mail implies that this is a recent change in policy. My work never sends an e-mail to everyone to say, "Just FYI, the policy we've had this whole time is still the policy. Keep doing what you've been doing."

So good work internet for kicking up a fuss - you probably got MS to change their mind.

 

[Rockster]

There was never any change in plan. Memo is to clear up perception of misinterpreted documents. Internet connection will be "required" for many functions to operate as designed. Very similarly in fact to any number of current day electronic entertainment devices. Evidently this was/is difficult to come to terms with, but has to be present as a disclaimer because consumers will complain just as vehemently the other way when they realize advertised features don't work without an Internet connection.

 

[(((interference)))]

No, it is definitely a change of plans - Kotaku, Edge, bgassassin etc were clear on this - the plan was for games to be unplayable without an internet connection - and it corroborates info I had been given before the first Edge article mentioning always online even came out.

And please, it's exceedingly unlikely that MS sends an internal memo to the Xbox team to explain to them something they've collectively misinterpreted, as if they're clueless journalists or the general public or something - they know what they've been working on for the past few years.

 

[AlphaWolf]

No, it is definitely a change of plans - Kotaku, Edge, bgassassin etc were clear on this - the plan was for games to be unplayable without an internet connection - and it corroborates info I had been given before the first Edge article mentioning always online even came out.

And please, it's exceedingly unlikely that MS sends an internal memo to the Xbox team to explain to them something they've collectively misinterpreted, as if they're clueless journalists or the general public or something - they know what they've been working on for the past few years.

I realize crow tastes terrible, but give it up.

It never made sense for MS to pick out 30% of their users and say we don't need/want you.

 

[warb]

No, it is definitely a change of plans - Kotaku, Edge, bgassassin etc were clear on this - the plan was for games to be unplayable without an internet connection - and it corroborates info I had been given before the first Edge article mentioning always online even came out.

And please, it's exceedingly unlikely that MS sends an internal memo to the Xbox team to explain to them something they've collectively misinterpreted, as if they're clueless journalists or the general public or something - they know what they've been working on for the past few years.

It seems like a sensible thing to clarify if your people are defending always connected rumours and getting themselves into trouble (Adam Orth). Especially if it isn't true.

It always seemed far too ridiculous to be true, though it was probably in there at some point. There's no way they'd have released a console that doesn't let you play games when your connection cuts out.

 

[3dcgi]

Could someone with some real in depth knowledge in this area answer this..

How difficult would it be to =
-up clocks of underwhelming cpu to 2ghz.
-up clocks of underwhelming gpu to 1ghz.
-increase ram up to 12gb.
-increase ram speed to a more respectable amount?

All of that or even some of that I don't expect to see the light of day, but would it be a very difficult technological challenge for the engineers to undertake? Would that push up heat by a substantial amount? That doesn't seem too far and above what's possible in theory on discrete pc parts... However this being a custom SOC design I'm guessing it's not directly comparable to what's going on a pc.

- $25
- $25
- $20
- $30

I'm just making up numbers and making the point that doing these things is a cost issue not a technical one.

 

[eastmen]

Which foundry? What speed? There has to be a reason why nobody ever used out of specs memory on a console. Nintendo used DDR3 1600, 4Gb each. If it was less expensive to use half as many 8Gb chip they would have done so. Sony is using 5.5Gbps GDDR5, despite the fact that 7Gbps is available. There are cost issues going with top of the line bins. Microsoft has the same difficult decisions to make as everybody else.

Right now, I'm seeing that Micron can make their DDR3 32bit wide 8Gb at 1600 max, that includes those in sampling capacity. If they could make them pass at 1866 and 2133, why wouldn't they offer them, at least as an expensive bin like the others? They do have 2133 4Gb available though.

So there are many choices to reach 8GB/2133:
1. use current 16bit 4Gb chips (low cost, available, higher PCB cost)
2. wait for 32bit 8Gb to be available at 2133 (lower cost for PCB, delay risk)
3. use a custom dual-die packaging with two x16 4Gb (heat, cost of custom)
4. overvolt an available 8Gb chip (heat, custom memory validation)
5. use an expensive, high-end binning (high cost, questionable volume)
6. Ask for a higher speed chip, which exists, but they didn't tell anyone (cost, risk of unicorn rain)

Personally, I see 1,2,3 as the most likely, until more information comes along...

I'm not sure what Nintendo has to do with this . They also did not choose a 8 jaguar core apu with a 1.2tf gpu inside of it. Does that make it impossible that ms will have it ?

Sony doesn't matter since they are using a different ram type with its own issues.
As I've said in another post a long time ago DDR 3 hasn't ad its JEDEC standard updated in along time. Because of that there is no real demand for higher clocked chips . So we aren't exactly aware of what can be made. We only know whats being made based on jedec standards .



Look at it this way. DDR3 2133 has existed since at least july 13 2010

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3815/ocz-unveil-4gb-ddr32133-modules

Clock speeds have been stuck since then even though we have seen them go through few ram micron processes since then.

So while you think its a unicron , some of us just realize that as you produce tens of thousands (if not millions ) of chips for years yields go up and your able to get better clock speeds and less power.

So I don't see MS getting a faster speed grade of ddr 3 for their console. It doesn't have to meet any JEDEC standards only has to perform at what MS wants .

 

[Scott_Arm]

This memo is interesting - they seem to have changed their plans.

As the top comment on the article states:


So good work internet for kicking up a fuss - you probably got MS to change their mind.

It could very easily be that they sent out the memo to calm office chatter. I work in a secret environment at work, and when we launch products it's a huge annoyance having people hang around trying to get behind closed doors. Rumours start to circulate. In this case, the last thing you want is people who are not "in the known" speaking to people on the outside "confirming" a rumour that is not the least bit true.

It could be exactly as you said, where they changed their plans, or it could be that the rumours were 100% wrong in the first place. If people want to pat themselves on the back for a job well done, they can go ahead and do that, but they only have a 50% chance of having been right.

 

[BoardBonobo]

If they have changed their plans then that might be where the six month delay rumour is stemming from. I can only imagine that MS will want to do everything they can to ensure they take the lead globally and not just on their home turf.

 

[(((interference)))]

It never made sense for MS to pick out 30% of their users and say we don't need/want you.

You would think so, but you underestimate the new Xbox management.

But don't take my word for it, listen to bkilian:

And you've hit one of the reasons I left. Almost all of the core gamers that created the Xbox that were in management have been forced out or left, and what's left over is MBAs with dollar signs in their eyes. I just found I could no longer believe in and agree with the direction the execs were taking the Xbox org.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1696487#post1696487

I have no idea. I guess they would have to be prepared for something like this if they knew beforehand that their spec would be lower than PS4. (Actually, I know exactly what the management response was when questioned about relative console power - and other non-leaked things that may have significant impact on the sales of consoles, but it's not my place to say. Let's just say that I got flashbacks to my days in a different, less successful, org in some meetings.)

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1702364&postcount=1299

This was before the first always online rumours appeared.

Some of his other posts on always online:

"Always Connected", not "Connected most of the time", not "Connected only when a game starts". "Always Connected".

If I, as a dev, read that, I would assume that means I could write a game that offloads some of it's processing to the cloud, or connects you to a persistent online world, or saves only to the cloud, or plays all it's FMVs directly from the net. _Always_ connected.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1702364&postcount=1299
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1724893#post1724893
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1724970#post1724970
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1725015#post1725015

But you're right, it could be that me, bgassassin, Edge and Kotaku (who were initially skeptical about Edge's report and then changed their mind and reiterated the rumours) were wrong all along.

 

[dobwal]

My CEO sent out a mass email to let us (5000 employees) know that no we weren't acquired by a Saudi company with a plan to require that all female employees wear burkas.

LOL.

Sometimes its necessary to address even ridiculous rumors. Rumors tend to get grow more outlandish over time the longer its left to simmer and I'd bet if the "always on" feature was left to itself the internet would start generating govt conspiracy involving MS.

 

[AlphaWolf]

But you're right, it could be that me, bgassassin, Edge and Kotaku (who were initially skeptical about Edge's report and then changed their mind and reiterated the rumours) were wrong all along.

Yup.

 

[joker454]

Sometimes its necessary to address even ridiculous rumors. Rumors tend to get grow more outlandish over time the longer its left to simmer and I'd bet if the "always on" feature was left to itself the internet would start generating govt conspiracy involving MS.

I'd add that sometimes big companies will purposely leak false rumors to catch the source of a leak, to obfuscate what they are really doing, to manipulate the press, etc. Given that the new Xbox has basically been "Confirmed" to have every cpu architecture, gpu and ram configuration available tells me that they were successful in keeping people in the dark.