NEW Lair Screens Plus Interview!

[Arwin]

To be honest; I haven't really seen good enough footage (quality wise) yet to be either impressed or disappointed. Judging from the screens, I like what I'm seeing so far... anyone have some good quality feeds?

What's the best you've seen so far? The best I've seen is the 1up show, and even that isn't brilliant - 640x350 and all off-screen. It makes it very hard to judge the real quality. But at least in that video we have some good demonstrations and explanations of what's in the game and what is happening where and when from the creator. What I also did see (at 14:10 for instance) is that you can actually move the camera around the dragon and even look at it a little bit closer up, and there it does really look like the screenshots, but it's still hard to tell the exact detail from any of this.

I'm just imagining it's in 1080p and they made good use of the available detail - they themselves were really enthusiastic earlier on about having so much more texture detail in 1080p compared to 720p - and also I'm correcting some of the HDR and lighting for the exaggerated contrast that the camera adds. But it would be awesome to have some true 1080p HD footage and/or screenshots. Heck even 720p footage would be a big step up.

 

[patsu]

IMHO the only dev that have been absolutely truthful and up front with the quality of their title in terms of visuals, animations, art etc., has been Cliffy B's team.

I beg to differ. I don't feel cheated by developers of Okami, Ico, Final Fantasy, Resistance, Splinter Cell, Heavenly Sword, F1, KOTOR, ...

Lair and several other PS3 titles have unfortunately had to rely on spin to maintain interest and create hype. Lair just doesn't look good NOW. MGS4's animation is "placeholder animation from MGS3" (<-- whatever that means), GT is not GT 5 but instead GT:HD blah blah blah... its kinda stupid to promote images, target renders, and CG movies of titles AS IF those were the games that we will play, then show the game when you KNOW its still two plus years away (in the cases of Lair showing at E3 05 and MGS$ at E306). An then say well its "early" footage and throw some random very low number to it (its only 35% complete!!!!!).

Remember some these games were supposed to be ready for the PS3 launches (March and November of 06) and a game like MGS was supposed to be ready for 2007 not 2008...Its not just Sony though... MS was supposed to have Forza 2 ready... (bust)... last year GR:AW was supposed to be ready for launch (bust). In stead we were treated to in hindsight CGTR ... *sigh*

I know I cant be the only person that this bothers...

You missed out Halo 2 and Halo 3 in your list. I don't see anything wrong with using CG trailers to promote games, as long as it's managed well. I think MotorStorm, F1 and Heavenly Sword are good examples.

As for throwing out a low completion number like 35%. *If* Factor 5 indeed runs into problem and have to rework some (much ?) of their stuff... what do you want them to put ? 80% ? Since we are not creating the games, why don't we just believe the developers and look elsewhere for exciting content/stories ? I'm sure these guys are working hard to recover their reputation now

 

[ultragpu]

everyone wait patiently please, the interview did mention that they'll release unscaled shots in the following weeks to showcase the visuals.

 

[blakjedi]

I beg to differ. I don't feel cheated by developers of Okami, Ico, Final Fantasy, Resistance, Splinter Cell, Heavenly Sword, F1, KOTOR, ....... and Halo 3 in your list.

I'm talking THIS gen obviously... Resistance is a good add to the list as well as possibly Heavenly Sword.

As for throwing out a low completion number like 35%. *If* Factor 5 indeed runs into problem and have to rework some (much ?) of their stuff... what do you want them to put ? 80% ? Since we are not creating the games, why don't we just believe the developers and look elsewhere for exciting content/stories ? I'm sure these guys are working hard to recover their reputation now

:smile: Bah I think Factor 5 is just dealing with having their skivvies showing... but they sure do try to spin these images and do console power comparisons in EVERY STATEMENT. Which is the point of my post... if your shit isnt hot, just admit it and say "we are certain it will look better..." Don't bother to tell me that the crap you have on screen can't be done on the other console... when it looks like crap... and theres stuff that for all intents and purposes, looks, animates, and generally provides a better sense of the technology you want your game to display, on the other console better than your game does right now.

Turn 10 is perfect example where marketing got ahead of programming but they aren't sitting there mouthing off about the "competition". Big difference there.

Developers should talk about their games ad their tech and otherwise shut their punk asses up! (STPAU!) Leave the spin to the console manufacturers, journalists and fanfolks...

 

[patsu]

I'm talking THIS gen obviously... Resistance is a good add to the list as well as possibly Heavenly Sword.

Well... you didn't say explicitly and I didn't make any assumptions. In any case, there are more than 1 honest dev.

:smile: Bah I think Factor 5 is just dealing with having their skivvies showing... but they sure do try to spin these images and do console power comparisons in EVERY STATEMENT. Which is the point of my post... if your shit isnt hot, just admit it and say "we are certain it will look better..." Don't bother to tell me that the crap you have on screen can't be done on the other console... when it looks like crap... and theres stuff that for all intents and purposes, looks, animates, and generally provides a better sense of the technology you want your game to display, on the other console better than your game does right now.

Turn 10 is perfect example where marketing got ahead of programming but they aren't sitting there mouthing off about the "competition". Big difference there.

Developers should talk about their games ad their tech and otherwise shut their punk asses up! (STPAU!) Leave the spin to the console manufacturers, journalists and fanfolks...

It's a personality thing and we have examples on both PS3 and Xbox360 sides. I'm not sure how we can stop them.

As for Factor 5, there were rumors that Lair was not progressing well before TGS. One of the regulars here posted a question regarding the rumor and I PM'ed him for more info. So the 35% estimate could be real for all we know.

 

[Darkon]

IMHO the only dev that have been absolutely truthful and up front with the quality of their title in terms of visuals, animations, art etc., has been Cliffy B's team.

Someone seems not to remember first shots then

Remember some these games were supposed to be ready for the PS3 launches (March and November of 06) and a game like MGS was supposed to be ready for 2007 not 2008

Late 2007, which may still happen

 

[Eagle-Vision]

:smile: Bah I think Factor 5 is just dealing with having their skivvies showing... but they sure do try to spin these images and do console power comparisons in EVERY STATEMENT. Which is the point of my post... if your shit isnt hot, just admit it and say "we are certain it will look better..." Don't bother to tell me that the crap you have on screen can't be done on the other console... when it looks like crap... and theres stuff that for all intents and purposes, looks, animates, and generally provides a better sense of the technology you want your game to display, on the other console better than your game does right now.

Geez, why do people hate Lair so much? It doesn't look like crap. Going by the same logic we can say that MGS4 is way worse since other than the models it looks like a PS2 game but no! We have people saying it looks amazing and what not. The level of hipocresy is very high lately.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Geez, why do people hate Lair so much? It doesn't look like crap.

Artistically there's nothing good about Lair. The lighting is shading is just plain bad. Also technically it's not really ticking many boxes. Now of course some people might like it's look, but objectively it's a bit of a turkey at the moment. And the ill feeling is compounded by awesome looking non-game footage and what appears to be a dull game.

 

[zed]

IMHO the only dev that have been absolutely truthful and up front with the quality of their title in terms of visuals, animations, art etc., has been Cliffy B's team.

i nearly spilt my coffee readingthis, wheres the sarcasm quotes?
http://www.zedzeek.com/GOW_CON/gow.html

 

[scooby_dooby]

i nearly spilt my coffee readingthis, wheres the sarcasm quotes?
http://www.zedzeek.com/GOW_CON/gow.html

What a ridiculous comparison. completely different levels of LOD. It's surprising that the detail from 2 feet away looks better than from 8ft away? Colour me surprised!

If you tried hard enough you could get screen caps of a GOW realtime cut scene, which would be a much more valid comparison.

Bottom line, Epic showed realtime models, in engine, they were staged sure, but the final game still looks like what they oriignally promised. LAIR on the other hand, complete bullshit.

Here's what comparable screenshots showed in 2005:

I don't see the huge downgrade there, and just to drill this home some more:

2005:

2006

The lighting looks much better in the recent shots, granted it's daylight compared to night time. But there is no large downgrade here.

Marketing is everything? No I don't think so, cherry picking screenshots is all you have done. Your entire point is debunked by the fact that GOW was shown in video form at E3 2005, it's not like people didn't know what the game was going to look like.

 

[blakjedi]

i nearly spilt my coffee readingthis, wheres the sarcasm quotes?
http://www.zedzeek.com/GOW_CON/gow.html

Ok the fact that you have a whole webpage on your site dedicated to doing comparisons of promo shots of Gears to screenshots is SCARY.. YOU HEAR ME? SCARY!

I think the basis of my statement was purely based on the first E3 to show off "next gen" gaming which was e5 2005. We got very good screenshots of Gears being played which ahowed CLEARLY a game in progress, texturework was necessary, animation/framerate was unimpressive etc... but it was the VERY first look most people had of a real next generation game from any company... that same E3, we got Motorstorm CG, Lair CG, MGS....clips, Heavenly Sword...clips , Killzone CG blah blah...

Now Im just saying Cliffy B and his team set realistic impressions of what could be achieved by his team on the 360 but was overwhelmed by bullshots... IMHO only really Heavenly Sword has even come close to their original clips and some footage of that game is truly breathtaking... I like the way Motorstorm looks more than the CG myself... so its not all bad... and I could care less. This Lair discussion where people are trying to say Lair is basically awesome and better than anything on 360in its current state (regardless of number attached) just has no basis in reality.

Folks should just stop the madness, and accept the facts as they are, and hope for the best in the future. Its what they are going to have to do anyway

 

[Eagle-Vision]

Artistically there's nothing good about Lair. The lighting is shading is just plain bad.

Artistically that's just the only bad thing, the exaggerated bloom. I don't see how the dragon or soldiers designs are bad.

Also technically it's not really ticking many boxes. Now of course some people might like it's look, but objectively it's a bit of a turkey at the moment.

I don't remember seeing a 3000+-soldiers-in-batle-in-a-pretty-detailed-32x32-miles-environment-with-a-wavy-ocean scene in any other game so far, but then again maybe you have...

And the ill feeling is compounded by awesome looking non-game footage and what appears to be a dull game.

It actually looks pretty fun for a flight game.

I think the basis of my statement was purely based on the first E3 to show off "next gen" gaming which was e5 2005. We got very good screenshots of Gears being played which ahowed CLEARLY a game in progress, texturework was necessary, animation/framerate was unimpressive etc... but it was the VERY first look most people had of a real next generation game from any company... that same E3, we got Motorstorm CG, Lair CG, MGS....clips, Heavenly Sword...clips , Killzone CG blah blah...

We didn't get any Lair CG last year...

 

[blakjedi]

Artistically that's just the only bad thing, the exaggerated bloom. I don't see how the dragon or soldiers designs are bad.

I don't remember seeing a 3000+-soldiers-in-batle-in-a-pretty-detailed-32x32-miles-environment-with-a-wavy-ocean scene in any other game so far, but then again maybe you have...

It actually looks pretty fun for a flight game.

We didn't get any Lair CG last year...

I dont think you counted the soldiers nor determined how many were on-screen, visible versus rendered (like PGR's 80000 poly cars ). I also havent seen those fights occur with the "wavy light rippling ocean" visible in detail close to the 3000 characters. Its like you guys are reading the back of the gamebox to prove a point... even if it does do all that it sure doesnt look that good doing it

It may be true that the Lair vids from e3 05 wasnt CG... but I doubt it... If they could do that in May 2005... why cant they do that in October 2006?

 

[.Melchiah.]

I don't think any of the more recent GoW material look as good as this does.

 

[Eagle-Vision]

I dont think you counted the soldiers nor determined how many were on-screen, visible versus rendered (like PGR's 80000 poly cars ). I also havent seen those fights occur with the "wavy light rippling ocean" visible in detail close to the 3000 characters. Its like you guys are reading the back of the gamebox to prove a point... even if it does do all that it sure doesnt look that good doing it

Even if it were rendering just a few at a time, they are extremely detailed as shown here: http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921042446115.jpg

You may not like the "look" of the game, but that isn't enough to dismiss it on a technical level.

It may be true that the Lair vids from e3 05 wasnt CG... but I doubt it... If they could do that in May 2005... why cant they do that in October 2006?

It wasn't CG, they demoed it in real time at GDC at the beginning of this year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgW81km74lk

Besides, we haven't seen the same level (with the rain) so we can't really say they downgraded it or something like that.

 

[Tap In]

i nearly spilt my coffee readingthis, wheres the sarcasm quotes?
http://www.zedzeek.com/GOW_CON/gow.html

hey thanks for the pics!!!

those real time shots look great to me.... very nice... but um.. yea... you have a little obsession.


Edit:
woops sorry... I thought we were in the GOW thread not Lair ... hey, wait a minute

 

[blakjedi]

Even if it were rendering just a few at a time, they are extremely detailed as shown here: http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921042446115.jpg

You may not like the "look" of the game, but that isn't enough to dismiss it on a technical level.

It wasn't CG, they demoed it in real time at GDC at the beginning of this year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgW81km74lk

Besides, we haven't seen the same level (with the rain) so we can't really say they downgraded it or something like that.

uh hhh you actually proved my point... that "ingame" looked like cutscenes... because NONE OF THE CURRENT INGAME VIDS LOOK LIKE THAT. And thats with a whole year to development if rumors are to be trusted... None. Not one. I'm not sure what the topic of the Lair session was but it obviously was based on something dealing with "modeling dragons" as opposed to demoing the "game."

If you apply all of any machines computational power to rendering a model it will look that good... *shrug* Tech demo at best. But I care about whats in the game. Thank you very much for the references though!

 

[scooby_dooby]

I don't think any of the more recent GoW material look as good as this does.

Neither did the old content they released in 2005, including dozens of other screenshots and realtime video. Point is, they were not trying to fool anyone. For every 1 bullshot (ya they released a couple) they released there were like 30 ingame screens.

The fundamental fact you guys are ingoring is that the majority of the original 2005 media looks basically identical to the game we're seeing today.

 

[Dr. Nick]

Neither did the old content they released in 2005, including dozens of other screenshots and realtime video. Point is, they were not trying to fool anyone. For every 1 bullshot (ya they released a couple) they released there were like 30 ingame screens.

The fundamental fact you guys are ingoring is that the majority of the original 2005 media looks basically identical to the game we're seeing today.

I'd like to point out that the shot above, while it contains a gears of war asset, was used mainly to show off what the Unreal engine can do. Infact if I remember correctly that screen came out way before the Xbox 360 or GOW was announced. Isn't it from E32004? At the time, since people seem to have short memories here, Epic used a mixture of GOW and UT2k7 to show off the engine. The screen was made to show off the engine only. When they showed Gears of War Microsoft nor Epic released these as being part of the game.

On a side note I think the game has improved since E32005 and many of the complaints about the armor and lack of hair have been addressed.

Edit:Yes, that is from E3 2004.

 

[Eagle-Vision]

uh hhh you actually proved my point... that "ingame" looked like cutscenes... because NONE OF THE CURRENT INGAME VIDS LOOK LIKE THAT. And thats with a whole year to development if rumors are to be trusted... None. Not one. I'm not sure what the topic of the Lair session was but it obviously was based on something dealing with "modeling dragons" as opposed to demoing the "game."

You're point actually was that the game was CG back then, I never claimed it was in-game, just real time, which it was. Besides, like I said before, we haven't seen that rainy level again so you can't say it was downgraded just yet.

If you apply all of any machines computational power to rendering a model it will look that good... *shrug* Tech demo at best. But I care about whats in the game. Thank you very much for the references though!

Other than the wet skin they look the same in the TGS footage.

http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/761/761161/img_3075472.html
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/761/761161/img_3933492.html