mckmas8808
Legend
Ahhh crap. Oh well. I'll show you a picture anyway just to get some more comfrimation.
NEW Lair Screens Plus Interview!
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Ahhh crap. Oh well. I'll show you a picture anyway just to get some more comfrimation.
That wasn't SSS either, but some faked translucency effect. There are exact documents on how that effect is implemented if you're interested, please forgive me but I won't take the time to get them for you.
It's everything together. Of course, the low-poly dragons I would call dynamic Meshes allowing for not only lots of dragons on screen, but also 3000 soldiers on that enormous bridge structure, and the low-res textures probably the same. The people complain about the lighting, but it's at the crack of dawn and lighting is very special at that time of day. I woke up on a beach at the crack of dawn myself (after a very romantic night, I might add
) and remember very well how amazed I was at the lighting. Mind you, the light in Lair isn't nearly *that* good, but it has similar tones (it makes everything look like gold), and if the lighting in this game is indeed as advertised, i.e. it will change in realtime using global illumination (even if you'd call it fake global illumination, whatever ). As for the fake water, well, it's a vast ocean and it has fully animated waves and nice light reflection on the ripples to boot. I have never seen anything like it.The point is, imho that's going to be very hard to pull off on the 360. The 360 may be able to do other stuff that is going to be hard to pull off on the PS3, but the SPE's and their streaming capabilities and local store are really bringing something to the table. Lair makes intensive use of that, and I predict that the 360 is not going to be able to do the same kind of thing. It will have some great shader effects for sure, and if programmers get a grip on the tiled rendering that's going to bring some stuff to the table too. But the Cell is one of those very rare chips that actually are capable of performing to spec.
Anyway, let's take it to this thread where this belongs. I'll copy this post there to make the transfer easier:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?p=843886#post843886
TurnDragoZeroV2G
Regular
I don't remember any claims of global illumination anywhere.Mind you, the light in Lair isn't nearly *that* good, but it has similar tones (it makes everything look like gold), and if the lighting in this game is indeed as advertised, i.e. it will change in realtime using global illumination (even if you'd call it fake global illumination, whatever
Avon_Implosion
Newcomer
there was talk of a new lighting engine being implemented into the newest build of Lair
Uh-oh, not a good argument to start with...
So they too can't get over the hardware's limit and display lots of high res models with high res textures. And we've had dynamic mesh level of detail in games since around 2000-2001, for example with Messiah or Hegemonia. I think we can say this is no technical marvel then.
The people complain about the lighting, but it's at the crack of dawn and lighting is very special at that time of day. I woke up on a beach at the crack of dawn myself (after a very romantic night, I might add
Sorry but crack of dawn does not look like that. I hate to call upon this but I'm paid to know about this stuff, even if I'm far from the best lighters. And what's more important is: you don't want it to look 'realistic' - but to look good.
The number one problem with this particular Lair level is that there's no main light source to account for the Sun. Light seems to be coming from totally random directions, and you can barely notice any shadows at all. Now one of the first rules in illustration is that the change of lit and shaded surfaces is what helps us to see form and shapes. This is almost totally lacking in Lair, so the images are completely flat.
But this is, again, no technological achievment, it probably has to do with an artist who haven't had enough time or is simply not capable to perform this task. I've seen both...
You see you've actually got the second problem right: everything looks like it's made of some kind of metal, whether it is stone, rock, armour, dragon skin, thin leather or anything, and it all helps to further emphasize how bad the lighting is. Add some overdone HDR bloom and here we are. Oh, and why are some parts lit to be bright yellow, and others bright blue, in a totally random way?
And again, it's not a technical achievment.
and if the lighting in this game is indeed as advertised, i.e. it will change in realtime using global illumination (even if you'd call it fake global illumination, whatever
We've had dynamic night and day cycles in many games for years, again. Same with fake global illumination.
I'm sorry but there's nothing substantial in the above lines. Cell performance SPE capabilities Xbox360 can't whatever - just what are you trying to say??
What I see in Lair are large enviroments, many totally similar looking dumb characters, and this so called progressive LOD which only makes everything lowpoly. Now we've seen crowds on X360 in Ninety-nine nights already, and there's Cameo too with the bonus of large enviroments. Halo3 seemed to push a ridiculously large enviroment in the announcement trailer, too, and I bet it will have you driving and flying around there with some fierce battles going on. And all looked better than Lair (though Cameo is pushing the shiny multicolored stuff a bit too much, too).
The game may easily end up pushing more soldiers or larger enviroments then anyone else, maybe even add physics for all of them, and it can end up looking very nice in the end, too.
But right now, it's ugly, and I can see nothing in it that couldn't be done in a normal PC game, not to mention the X360's closed enviroment. Demoing it was a serious mistake from Sony, it's clearly not ready for that. I also can't understand the obvious drop of quality from previous footage - memory constrains may explain the loss of detail, but whatever happened to the art director?
And I'm sorry to say but people talking about how good it is probably agree deep down somewhere, but they can't admit it because of the high expectations they've had for the game.
Why not ? I don't particularly like Lair but I also can't understand why so many people try to put it down at 35% completion. It seems that they have run into some development difficulties and are trying to turn around. If I were to hazard a guess, I think they screwed up at scope management. So if they trim/optimize their graphics according to gameplay, we should see an improvement.
Many rate Lair badly and complained about downgrade, but at this moment I remain hopeful.
Being able to combine all the elements you mentioned together is a feat. We can all pull different things from different games to compare and say Lair does not impress. But is there another game that has everything you mentioned together in a working package, plus large draw distance in a 3D space (seamless flight and ground action), cloth simulation, etc.
My main interest is Lair's gameplay element and whether it ties in with the graphic system.
e.g. 1, Whether the proprietary LOD helps in game play in high res. It would be cool if dragons can see ground objects at great altitude and then dive attack them. Detailed texture may be less important to me.
e.g. 2 If the flag waves in the wind, can dragon wings generate turbulence of air around it and throw the soldiers off their balance.
e.g. 3, What is the back story, is the citadel made of some sort of metal to begin with ?
so on and so forth.
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Personally, I belive that they've shown Lair way too early. Sony didn't do themselves and F5 any favor with their TGS showing. It has really disappointed a lot of people. Since Lair is supposedly scheduled for late 2007, there was simply no need to push F5 to create a half-finished demo. As mentioned before, the art direction was all inconsistent, the gameplay so far seemed a bit shallow and repetetive. They should have taken their time and create a good presentation for the pre-E3 conference.
Eagle-Vision
Regular
They never made a target CG... The E3 trailer, while CG, it was just that, CG. Never intended to show what they're trying to achieve graphically.
You are aware that the single true HDR display ever demoed costs somewhere around 50000 bucks, right? And you are also aware that tone-mapping is employed in order to map the high-dynamic range to the LDR of ALL displays comercially available(AFAIK, maybe that 50k thing is available now), am I correct?
If you are aware of both of those things, I fail to see how that helps improve Lair`s image. I don`t see throngs going out and shelling what basically ammounts to a limousine in order to see that game in its supposed full glory...and, as I sidenote, I don`t agree with the above explanation of why they`re exposure is fooked, but that`s just me
scooby_dooby
Legend
I think everyone is hopeful about this game, but that's no reason to pretend it looks great when it obviously doesn't.
I'm sorry, who's pretending ? Is there a need to ?
In my view, it has all the nextgen visual elements but the overall quality is not up to par based on most people's feedback. It is also only 35% complete. I'm not sure what kind of conclusion we can draw on the final game yet.
As stated, my main concern is gameplay. The visuals will improve over time. Lair is still pretty unique in its own right. If it's yet another FPS, then I think they'd be in serious trouble.
In my view, it has all the nextgen visual elements but the overall quality is not up to par based on most people's feedback. It is also only 35% complete. I'm not sure what kind of conclusion we can draw on the final game yet.
As stated, my main concern is gameplay. The visuals will improve over time. Lair is still pretty unique in its own right. If it's yet another FPS, then I think they'd be in serious trouble.
when i say a game look impressive i dont waste time to pretrend.
In all these circumstances... the sad part is not the developers efforts, its not the images displayed, its not the power of the machines... its the incessant spin and hype that surrounds every frickin game before release.
IMHO the only dev that have been absolutely truthful and up front with the quality of their title in terms of visuals, animations, art etc., has been Cliffy B's team. We have watched teh growing pains of that title incessantly and almost ad nauseum...it amazing that we still know very little of what that title holds even having been taken through a full 30 minutes of the ten or so hours on screen.
Lair and several other PS3 titles have unfortunately had to rely on spin to maintain interest and create hype. Lair just doesn't look good NOW. MGS4's animation is "placeholder animation from MGS3" (<-- whatever that means), GT is not GT 5 but instead GT:HD blah blah blah... its kinda stupid to promote images, target renders, and CG movies of titles AS IF those were the games that we will play, then show the game when you KNOW its still two plus years away (in the cases of Lair showing at E3 05 and MGS$ at E306). An then say well its "early" footage and throw some random very low number to it (its only 35% complete!!!!!).
Remember some these games were supposed to be ready for the PS3 launches (March and November of 06) and a game like MGS was supposed to be ready for 2007 not 2008...Its not just Sony though... MS was supposed to have Forza 2 ready... (bust)... last year GR:AW was supposed to be ready for launch (bust). In stead we were treated to in hindsight CGTR ... *sigh*
I know I cant be the only person that this bothers...
IMHO the only dev that have been absolutely truthful and up front with the quality of their title in terms of visuals, animations, art etc., has been Cliffy B's team. We have watched teh growing pains of that title incessantly and almost ad nauseum...it amazing that we still know very little of what that title holds even having been taken through a full 30 minutes of the ten or so hours on screen.
Lair and several other PS3 titles have unfortunately had to rely on spin to maintain interest and create hype. Lair just doesn't look good NOW. MGS4's animation is "placeholder animation from MGS3" (<-- whatever that means), GT is not GT 5 but instead GT:HD blah blah blah... its kinda stupid to promote images, target renders, and CG movies of titles AS IF those were the games that we will play, then show the game when you KNOW its still two plus years away (in the cases of Lair showing at E3 05 and MGS$ at E306). An then say well its "early" footage and throw some random very low number to it (its only 35% complete!!!!!).
Remember some these games were supposed to be ready for the PS3 launches (March and November of 06) and a game like MGS was supposed to be ready for 2007 not 2008...Its not just Sony though... MS was supposed to have Forza 2 ready... (bust)... last year GR:AW was supposed to be ready for launch (bust). In stead we were treated to in hindsight CGTR ... *sigh*
I know I cant be the only person that this bothers...
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