Need for Speed Shift 2

[RudeCurve]

Actually basically the only skill you don't get from games is learning to physically handle the G-forces. Everything else is pretty much in there, from overtaking to optimal rpm and gear management to overtaking strategies, conserving your tires and fuel and what not (though not all games have proper race flag simulations)

Actually in real life you can feel if you're losing traction, in games you can't feel it you can only see it. Likewise you can't feel elevation changes like the big drop at Laguna Seca either.

Oh and games don't teach you how to keep the engine from stalling when driving a manual.

 

[tuna]

Joker, what fps are you getting on your PC?

Also, the console versions are 30 fps right?

 

[djskribbles]

Actually in real life you can feel if you're losing traction, in games you can't feel it you can only see it. Likewise you can't feel elevation changes like the big drop at Laguna Seca either.

Oh and games don't teach you how to keep the engine from stalling when driving a manual.

You must not play with a wheel in GT5 then, because I can feel if I'm losing traction fairly easily. That's one of the improvements I found in GT5 over previous GT games.

 

[Antan]

You must not play with a wheel in GT5 then, because I can feel if I'm losing traction fairly easily. That's one of the improvements I found in GT5 over previous GT games.

+1.

 

[joker454]

Joker, what fps are you getting on your PC?

Also, the console versions are 30 fps right?

60fps on pc at 1920x1080 with everything maxed (i7 + 580). I believe console version is 30fps but haven't tried any so not totally sure.

I'll add one thing to my previous comment to Antan about Shift 2. If you tend to play racing games in the in car view then you really need to try Shift 2. I have to say it's pretty neat how they handle that view compared to other racers. Seems like they are taking head bobbing, etc, into account so it makes it a very unique experience, although I still tend to play in other views.

I'm still finding Shift 2 to be really hard. For example the hot lap event when you race in Lexus LFA's, and it keeps chopping off who is last every few seconds. On normal difficulty I simply can't get into the top 3, I had to switch to easy mode to finally beat that event.

 

[RudeCurve]

You must not play with a wheel in GT5 then, because I can feel if I'm losing traction fairly easily. That's one of the improvements I found in GT5 over previous GT games.

Drive with your eyes closed and turn off the audio then see if you can feel loss of traction...

 

[nightshade]

Drive with your eyes closed and turn off the audio then see if you can feel loss of traction...

Why would he do that? vision and sound are just as equally important, for eg. you can't balance yourself properly while walking with your eyes and ears shut can you eventhough you only use your legs to walk?
But regarding your point, yes he'll still feel the loss of traction due to the force feedback.

 

[djskribbles]

Drive with your eyes closed and turn off the audio then see if you can feel loss of traction...

Now you're just being silly. How is anyone supposed to drive period without eye sight?

But to answer your question, yes I can, by the feedback of the wheel. When you play with a controller, you don't 'feel' those type of things. With a wheel, you can literally feel when your tires are gripping or not with the FF, just like in real life. I may not have been on a real race track, but I drive in Canadian winters where the roads can literally be a skating rink. I can tell if I'm gripping the road or not just by the feel of the wheel.

 

[RudeCurve]

That's pure BS I've also driven on ice in a RWD car, you cannot tell whether you've got REAR traction simply from steering wheel feedback. The ONLY way to tell other than lack of acceleration forces is through vision eg oh look my car isn't moving.

 

[djskribbles]

I gotta ask again... do you have a FF wheel? Have you even played GT5?

After putting in probably around 100 hours into GT5 with my DFGT wheel, I can undoubtedly say that I can feel traction loss, just by the feedback of the wheel, as can most people with a good FF wheel.

Again, there are many skills that can be learned from a good racing sim and good FF wheel. Clearly you don't agree, so let's just agree to disagree.

 

[RudeCurve]

You can feel steering traction loss through the steering wheel yes

traction loss through the rear tires no...

Steering wheel feedback is 1 dimensional

G force feedback is 3 dimensional

no comparison

Yes there are skills that can be learned from a good sim, but G force sensory input is not one of them. Unless you have a full blown hydraulic simulation cockpit.

 

[djskribbles]

'Steering traction loss' is a result of tire traction loss. The amount of traction your tires get will be felt in the resistance of the feedback from the wheel. How else do you feel traction loss when driving a real car? With the way your car moves, and the feel of the wheel -- just like in a racing sim. Yes in a real car, you can physically feel the weight shift from the g-forces, but you get enough feedback from the wheel to sense the traction of the tires.

I never said G-force can be felt in a racing sim (obviously not). All I said was that there are many skills that can be learned, and I agree with Arwin in saying that, pretty much the only difference is being able to handle the incredible g-forces. No racing sims aren't perfectly accurate, but I can't agree that not much can be taken and applied to real racing.

 

[RudeCurve]

'Steering traction loss' is a result of tire traction loss. The amount of traction your tires get will be felt in the resistance of the feedback from the wheel. How else do you feel traction loss when driving a real car? With the way your car moves, and the feel of the wheel -- just like in a racing sim. Yes in a real car, you can physically feel the weight shift from the g-forces, but you get enough feedback from the wheel to sense the traction of the tires..

No, *steering* traction loss is traction loss through the front tires which is used for *steering*. When people talk about understeer in a RWD car it means you're losing FRONT/STEERING traction while the REAR has lots of traction pushing the front to lose traction.

Try this experiment, put some really narrow tires on the front of a car and really wide tires on tthe rear. Now what do you think will happen? That's right the car will want to go straight even if you turn the steering wheel.

Now how can you tell just by the feedback from the steering wheel that you're losing traction vs having traction? The load on the steering wheel will be identical unless the tires are completely off the pavement when losing traction, not to mention you have no sense of what traction is on the REAR tires.

You cannot feel oversteer/understeer through the steering wheel nor can you feel rear tire traction from the steering wheel..it's impossible without using some other sensory input ie vision to completely takeover. If you can feel it through the steering wheel then it's EXAGGERATED and not realistic.

There's also another variable that which is tire compound/tread design which makes some tires "predictable" at the limit while some others give no warning when breaking loose.

If that wasn't enough there's the whole power steering vs speed sensing power steering vs no power steering which muddies it up even more with respect to steering traction resistance.

 

[djskribbles]

Seeing as you haven't answered me, I'm assuming you don't have a wheel.

It's funny that you're telling me (as well as the millions that play GT5 with a wheel) that we don't feel traction loss/oversteer/understeer. What's the point of FF then?

If you do have a wheel and don't feel these things, then I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you don't. But at the same time, you can't tell me that I don't, because I in fact do. PD and all the good wheel makers out there do a very good job at simulating the feel of these things.

Whether it's digitally simulated or being able to actually physically feel something isn't what I'm trying to argue here. The argument is whether the 'feel' is simulated accurately enough to be useful in applying to real life racing.

 

[RudeCurve]

What you're feeling through the steering wheel is not oversteer/understeer since that is impossible, instead it is the natural tendency of the steering wheel and car to want to center itself which happens in both cases. The only time when there is little to no resistance is when driving in a straight line or having the front tires off the pavement.

 

[Tap In]

the shimmering and aliasing on the 360 version were so bad I could not take it any more.
took it back and got back my used copy of Shift 1. Overall a much better experience.

S2 feels rushed and the IQ degradation from S1 is stunningly bad, although it is fun to race and the driving model is a bit more refined although both are great if you put the time into tuning.


the immersiveness that Shift is going for in these games should be commended though beyond just a good "imitation of cars and driving"

It feels like you are moving and is visceral and FUN.

 

[djskribbles]

What you're feeling through the steering wheel is not oversteer/understeer since that is impossible, instead it is the natural tendency of the steering wheel and car to want to center itself which happens in both cases. The only time when there is little to no resistance is when driving in a straight line or having the front tires off the pavement.

Regardless of what you're telling me what I feel, the feedback I get from the wheel allows me to sense oversteer or understeer, and that's all that's important. I don't understand how it's any different in real life (other than feeling the weight shift).

 

[RudeCurve]

Regardless of what you're telling me what I feel, the feedback I get from the wheel allows me to sense oversteer or understeer, and that's all that's important.

If that's truly the case then it's logical that you should be able to close your eyes with the sound off and still know if your car is understeering or oversteering and whether or not you have REAR traction...So have you closed your eyes and turned off the sound and done it? If not then why not fire the PS3 up and do it intead of continually claiming that you BELIEVE YOU CAN? Are you afraid to admit you're wrong? Why not do it then come back here and explain how it's done? You say that would be ridiculous but it is your logic that says you can feel it through the steering wheel without the aid of visual and audio sensory input.

I don't understand how it's any different in real life (other than feeling the weight shift)

You just answered your own question...

 

[djskribbles]

If that's truly the case then it's logical that you should be able to close your eyes with the sound off and still know if your car is understeering or oversteering and whether or not you have REAR traction...So have you closed your eyes and turned off the sound and done it? If not then why not fire the PS3 up and do it intead of continually claiming that you BELIEVE YOU CAN? Are you afraid to admit you're wrong? Why not do it then come back here and explain how it's done? You say that would be ridiculous but it is your logic that says you can feel it through the steering wheel without the aid of visual and audio sensory input.

Coming from someone who doesn't own a wheel.

But FWIW, I just fired up GT5 again last night, and yes I do feel loss of traction with no audio or visual, fairly easily, just as I thought. The only reason why I didn't do it earlier, was because I didn't feel that I had to prove to myself what I already knew. But since I haven't played in a month or so, I decided I would just for fun.

Took an Italia (MR) out with sport tires, got up to speed, jerked the wheel to make a right turn while constantly giving gas to purposely create power oversteer, and I felt my rear end start to slide as the rear tires were losing traction. What I felt on the wheel was the resistance weakened and started to pull a little in the opposite direction until the rear tires started to catch again and the 'pull' stopped. Then I opened my eyes again and did a clean lap on the Eiger track, and I can tell you that there were many times where it looked like I was going straight (or on course), but I felt the same pull on the wheel telling me that I was starting to slide and had to let up on the throttle so that I could gain traction on my rear tires to prevent me from spinning. As I was starting to slide, I looked at my tire temperature on the HUD and sure enough, my tires were starting to warm up.

With that said, do I physically feel the weight transfer in my body? No. Can I sense that the weight is shifting, my rear is sliding and that my rear tires are losing traction through the feel of the feedback from the wheel? Yes.
Coming from someone who doesn't play with a wheel, all you said was that it's not possible to feel traction loss in a video game by feel (only by sight); and coming from someone who has played around 100 hours of GT5 with a wheel, I'm telling you that you can.

 

[RudeCurve]

jerked the wheel to make a right turn while constantly giving gas to purposely create power oversteer, and I felt my rear end start to slide as the rear tires were losing traction. What I felt on the wheel was the resistance weakened and started to pull a little in the opposite direction until the rear tires started to catch again and the 'pull' stopped. Then I opened my eyes again and did a clean lap on the Eiger track, and I can tell you that there were many times where it looked like I was going straight (or on course), but I felt the same pull on the wheel telling me that I was starting to slide and had to let up on the throttle so that I could gain traction on my rear tires to prevent me from spinning. As I was starting to slide, I looked at my tire temperature on the HUD and sure enough, my tires were starting to warm up..

You just proved my point. You went into this experiment KNOWING what to expect from the actions that you made.

1. Picked a car you knew was RWD with enough hp to break rear tractiion..*wow how convenient*
2. Jerked the steering to intentionally induce an expected outcome.

That's like saying I closed my eyes and began by preparing to drive the car off a cliff and could feel the moment the car launched into the air because at that point I could feel no steering resistance...

Well what if I told you to close your eyes and also told you that you were about to launch off a cliff when in reality you were instead going from tarmac onto an icy road? I bet you would say the exact same thing eg "I could feel the exact moment the car launched off the cliff" even though you never left the road.

The moral of the story is you felt something and assumed it was X happening when in fact you have no clue what is actually happening. The only reason why you guessed corrrect was because you knew what to expect before it even happened.

Anyway I've proven my point and am done with this topic...