My editorial is finally out.

Typedef enum...my old nemesis :LOL:

I believe something happened with that award for being best GPU thread with the 5800. Anyhow it is good to see Type broaden his horizons. :D
 
I might not agree completely to all of it (IMO there are some parts of the story missing), but it definitely was an interesting read.

Oh and check your PM Uttar :)
 
Not linking to something because you (or your community) disagree with its contents is hardly a good way to run a news posting operation.
 
Any feedback from nV-staff, Uttar?

Oh, and all those other subjects you were considering - why not write up a few "less proof read" post here instead? I'd like to have one every week 8)
 
Ollo said:
Any feedback from nV-staff, Uttar?
Did you seriously expect them to reply to Dig's e-mails? :LOL:
I'm expecting them to get attacked from another side though. ULE might have had a lot more impact than the apparent "not so amazing" and "nobody cares" reactions I've seen someplaces.
If it does have that impact, though, it'll have been a part of the chain, just another but telling thing that encouraged changes.

Oh, and all those other subjects you were considering - why not write up a few "less proof read" post here instead? I'd like to have one every week 8)

Yeah, I'm supposed to be QUITTING this stuff; not writing even more than before :D ;) :p ( read: No, sorry. )


Uttar
 
Uttar said:
Ollo said:
Any feedback from nV-staff, Uttar?
Did you seriously expect them to reply to Dig's e-mails? :LOL:
I'm expecting them to get attacked from another side though. ULE might have had a lot more impact than the apparent "not so amazing" and "nobody cares" reactions I've seen someplaces.
If it does have that impact, though, it'll have been a part of the chain, just another but telling thing that encouraged changes.
I was sort of hoping that Carrie Cowan would at least reply to me with a standard, "I've been instructed not to reply to your e-mails" type message...but alas. :(

What's the next big hubbub bub? ;)
 
Doomtrooper said:
Typedef enum...my old nemesis :LOL:

I believe something happened with that award for being best GPU thread with the 5800. Anyhow it is good to see Type broaden his horizons. :D

ah yes... the world famous peter glaskowsky :cool:
 
I think you've summarized what has been obvious (at least to me) for most of the last year: nVidia is simply a very poorly managed company. It often surprises people to discover that some technology companies really have no clue from one day to the next where they are going and are so poorly organized and managed that middle management is often in wide disagreement concerning product schedules, yield targets, etc. Like other poorly managed companies, there are just too many middle managers in nVidia, who have too much individual latitude. Turf wars, and turf protection and self defense, abound, and that's a lot of why things seem so disjointed to outsiders, and even to low-level employees of the company.

nVidia seems to me to be suffering from the same kind of delusions that afflicted, and crippled, 3dfx management in 1999. Like 3dfx, nVidia has grown way too fast for its own good, and like 3dfx in 1999, nVidia in 2002 assumed many things about its "position" in the 3d-chip marketplace that simply were never true to begin with.

When we realize that it was late in 1998 when nVidia shipped the TNT, just five years ago, and when we consider the massive fiscal growth of the company since that time, which was fueled in large part by a grossly overblown stock capitalization appreciation that occurred when M$ tapped nVidia for xBox, not to mention the implosion and demise of its strongest competitor of the time, 3dfx, it's easy to see how such rapid growth lead to the current state of hubris within nVidia. It's a classic example of how power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely (although I might amend that in these cases to "power & money" doing the corrupting.)

A corporation is never any stronger than the people who run it, it should never be forgotten. Whatever weaknesses they have will be reflected in the corporation as a whole. In the case of nVidia, I agree with you that the problem begins at the top and spreads outward and downward from there throughout the pyramidal structure of the company. If a company has 1,000 employees and 999 of them are right about something, but the guy at the top is wrong and overrules them, then all 1,000 employees must eventually pay for it.

There's an insidious idea at work here (nVidia, again, will not be the first or last company to be so afflicted) which is at the core of the canker eating away the heart of the company. The cancerous concept at work here might be paraphrased like this: "We are so rich and influential that it must be Manifest Destiny which has put us here, and therefore nothing in this world can topple us."

It's a grand, but all too common delusion among corporations which grow far too fast. 3dfx, for instance, believed its position so secure that it could dramatically change its business model, move its emphasis from products to a primary reliance on brand recognition, throw away millions of dollars in a variety of ways, and yet remain dominant and "number one" at the end of the day. 3dfx upper management obviously did not have a clue as to what had made the company successful in the past, and was full of all kinds of amusing ideas about how it would remain successful in the future (and how other companies would fail.)

nVidia today is no different, it seems to me, regarding the centrality of this delusion in so far as how it affects the day-to-day operation of the company. Brand is always a strong element in the marketplace; however, it can also become a double-edged sword, especially when people perceive products associated with the brand as inferior. Such has always been the case for Apple Computer in the general computer marketplace, and prior to R300 & the Catalysts, was very much the case for ATi as well in the 3d-chip markets.

Indeed, the "3dfx" brand awareness has survived long after the company itself (a fact which did and does 3dfx no good whatsoever...:)) So when I hear JHH making statements about the "nVidia brand" driving his products into the market, with apparently no understanding that it was the products themselves which drove the brand, I just have to shake my head and think, "Shades of 3dfx." This is one of the management "snafus" of perception that I have learned to look for when attempting to discover key facts about a given technology-product company's management. If they don't understand that the product drives the brand, not the other way around, then they don't understand anything, IMO. nVidia appears to be able to apprehend this no better than 3dfx was able to do it, and so it won't surprise me to see nVidia follow, eventually, in 3dfx's footsteps.

If we take the leading 3d-chip/gpu design companies of the last five years, nVidia, 3dfx, and ATi, what's interesting are some fundamental differences that I've observed. Whereas 3dfx seemed and now nVidia seems thoroughly entranced by the Manifest Destiny delusion, it certainly appears as if ATi has mercifully been spared it. Perhaps it is because ATi has been in business much longer than either company, and has had to endure years of struggling in the 3d-chip marketplace as a "second-string" player always struggling to become competitive with either 3dfx or nVidia, depending on which time frame prior to R300 you might look at. I think it's possible being in this position for so long has seasoned ATi to a degree that neither 3dfx or nVidia management ever enjoyed. As the result of its experience, ATi was able to examine itself and actually execute on the kinds of changes it needed to make to improve itself dramatically with respect to both its competition and the needs and desires of its markets. 3dfx was unable to do this, but rather expected its markets to change to accomodate it, instead. And it certainly seems as if nVidia is no different.

A good example of the major differences in corporate philosophy I think is the participation of ATi employees all year long in forums around the Internet, in which they take the time to answer questions and to read about the kinds of things the people who drive their markets are saying they'd like to see. They participate as individuals, and they often respond very quickly to situations they read about in various forums on the Internet. Contrast this to nVidia's "closed shop" approach where everything has to be a part of a formal PR delivery, and the fact that few if any of nVidia's employees engage anybody in their end markets in a dialogue. Big, big difference.

I think it stems from some fundamental misunderstandings of the type I allude to above. nVidia doesn't see "you & I" as its "customers." It sees its board OEMs as its only customers, and apparently feels that "you & I" aren't really interested in products--that what we want is to buy a brand name, instead of a product with discrete functionality and good software support. It's hard to imagine how a company can get more out of touch with its markets than that. nVidia management apparently feels that "if the brand is driven correctly" by its OEMs into the marketplace, that end users won't care about product performance and feature support, but will buy based on brand perception. That's a really brazen philosophy, mainly because it is so wrong on so many levels. At the very best, it is only partially true, some of the time.

For instance, how a rational player in the 3d-chip & gaming marketplace might ever think that to announce it was considering reducing the frequency of its driver releases from an already subpar number of "quarterly" to "one per year" might positively influence either its OEM partners or its end-user base toward their products is quite beyond me. And yet, evidently, this kind of thing presents no difficulty to nVidia management, apparently because it has become fixated on the falsehood that people buy nVidia for love of the brand instead of love of product performance, functionality, and driver support. How is it possible for people to become so confused?

"Manifest Destiny," is an alluring, seductive philosophy which has promised many nations, corporations, and individuals many things throughout history, but has much more often than not failed to deliver on them. It's a delusion, like any other, and as human beings some of us are simply more prone to such things than others, is the way I see it.
 
So, now we need to listen to you talk about 3dfx? Most of which is wrong BTW. Although the "Manifest Destiny" line was cute - especially when used to talk about 3dfx. Because, let me tell you, if there was ever an expansionist/imperialistic company... it was good old 3dfx and their legacy 1996 core which just happened to be in the right place, at the right time, with the right market and component prices.

I'd consider 3dfx much more akin to ATI's preformance groups prior to the R300 than anything else.

For some reason, I'm strangly picturing my little, 7 year old, cousin trying to read a history book. Oh well, I'll probably have my post deleted anyways for not towing the "nVidia kills babies" line around here. God forbid we have to read a post that's doesn't blame nVidia for instigating the great flood because of its sins.
 
Vince said:
it was good old 3dfx and their legacy 1996 core which just happened to be in the right place, at the right time, with the right market and component prices.

Sounds much like nvidia with the NV2x core...
 
Vince said:
So, now we need to listen to you talk about 3dfx? Most of which is wrong BTW. Although the "Manifest Destiny" line was cute - especially when used to talk about 3dfx. Because, let me tell you, if there was ever an expansionist/imperialistic company... it was good old 3dfx and their legacy 1996 core which just happened to be in the right place, at the right time, with the right market and component prices.

I'd consider 3dfx much more akin to ATI's preformance groups prior to the R300 than anything else.

For some reason, I'm strangly picturing my little, 7 year old, cousin trying to read a history book. Oh well, I'll probably have my post deleted anyways for not towing the "nVidia kills babies" line around here. God forbid we have to read a post that's doesn't blame nVidia for instigating the great flood because of its sins.
Oh please.
Just because everyone around here doesnt share your incredible nVidia bias, doesnt mean we have some "nVidia kills babies" (could you try to be more rediculous - and next time, try to use something more emotionally charged, its the only way to make your pathetic argument seem strong) complex.
Take off your blinders - because I am picturing my 7 year old cousin trying to win an argument by calling the other side "poopy heads".
 
JoeDeFuria said:
Sounds much like nvidia with the NV2x core...

Perhaps. Yet, nVidia's 'rise' was based on fundimentals - fundimental tenents of buisness and design that 3dfx just didn't have. 3dfx was more akin to an Ebola patient whose just ready to bleedout, their organs having liquified. They got lucky in the mid-90s with the advancements in process technology that allowed for RAM to become a commodity and a multimillion gate IC to be economical so that their arcade design could permeate the home. After SST-1, there was nothing but a vague promise of a new architecture... with their CEO uprooting individuals post-STB that weakened the company, helped cause a high turn-over and basically killed the comapny via the slow death.

nVidia is fundimentally a strong company with a sound buisness and economic basis and a clear future. This is true regardless how much people like Walt imagine different.

Althornin said:
Oh please.
Just because everyone around here doesnt share your incredible nVidia bias

Your right, I'm so highly biased and filled with blinding love of an IHV and despise of another that I'm compelled to post 2,000 word posts with no factual basis but my mental (d)illusions. :rolleyes:

doesnt mean we have some "nVidia kills babies" (could you try to be more rediculous - and next time, try to use something more emotionally charged, its the only way to make your pathetic argument seem strong) complex.

Yeah, I can be more 'rediculous' (sic) - I'll just adopt the posting patterns and methodology of... say.. Walt.

Take off your blinders - because I am picturing my 7 year old cousin trying to win an argument by calling the other side "poopy heads".

My blinders? Where have my arguments been slanted in a PC discussion based around technology or forthcomming technology? My blinders only allow me to see the diservice some folks here are doing via their extreme bias and want to see contextually negative events and occurances that, frankly, don't exist (eg. 3dfx and Walt).

I mean, can you honestly say Walt isn't a biased and hateful poster? If you had any clue as to the extreme problems inside 3dfx, which were intrinsic to the company and their rise/circumstances, you'd see that his argument is so circumstantial and.. quite honestly, utter horseshit.

"Manifest Destiny"?!? What the heck... it's like he just read this in his grammar school history book and wanted to work it in somehow. If not, then he is seriously insane to have that obtuse a thought pattern.
 
Vince said:
Your right, I'm so highly biased and filled with blinding love of an IHV and despise of another that I'm compelled to post 2,000 word posts with no factual basis but my mental (d)illusions. :rolleyes:
No, you are compelled to defend your IHV with emotional language and pathetic, rude arguments instead. Nice.

doesnt mean we have some "nVidia kills babies" (could you try to be more rediculous - and next time, try to use something more emotionally charged, its the only way to make your pathetic argument seem strong) complex.

Yeah, I can be more 'rediculous' (sic) - I'll just adopt the posting patterns and methodology of... say.. Walt.
Oh please.
Nice job picking on a word misspelling, though. That PROVES your point!
And i have to say, Walt's posts read like pure rationality when compared to a post that tries to associate nVidia bashing with baby killing.

My blinders? Where have my arguments been slanted in a PC discussion based around technology or forthcomming technology? My blinders only allow me to see the diservice some folks here are doing via their extreme bias and want to see contextually negative events and occurances that, frankly, don't exist (eg. 3dfx and Walt).
You always jump in on the side of a single IHV, with hateful and emotional language. yes, that tells me you have blinders on.

I mean, can you honestly say Walt isn't a biased and hateful poster? If you had any clue as to the extreme problems inside 3dfx, which were intrinsic to the company and their rise/circumstances, you'd see that his argument is so circumstantial and.. quite honestly, utter horseshit.
wow, with such proof as that, no wonder no one believes you. Your argument is "walt is wrong, he is full of it". Nice refutation there! Besides, the issue i raised isnt Walt, it was YOUR post. Nice try to hide though.
 
Althornin said:
No, you are compelled to defend your IHV with emotional language and pathetic, rude arguments instead. Nice.

Get a grip. I'm not defending "my IHV"... how polar is the thinking around here. I don't give a shit what happens to nVidia in the grand scheme of things. My laptop uses an Intel chipset, I don't own nVidia as an investment. They can slide into the Pacific for all I care. I'm merely questioning Walt on his utter BS that nobody else seems to do.

Oh please. Nice job picking on a word misspelling, though. That PROVES your point!
And i have to sya, Walt's posts read like pure rationality when compared to a post that tries to associate nVidia bashing with baby killing.

Whatever. Fine. Wow.... you're just mortally hurt me by invoking the deadly 'Hyperbole = set-piece opinion' equivalence tactic. OMG! My honor is gone... if only you knew what hyperbole was I'd still be alive to defend "my IHV."

You always jump in on the side of a single IHV, with hateful and emotional language. yes, that tells me you have blinders on.

And when [if] nVidia regains the lead and there is an influx of ATI bashers on the level of Walt... I'll defend ATI. Just I'll defend Sony/SCEI in the console forum, or Intel elsewhere from the AMD fanatics, or as I once did 3dfx against the dreaded nVidia-blinded bots who I've suddenly become - how very ironic.

wow, with such proof as that, no wonder no one believes you. Your argument is "walt is wrong, he is full of it". Nice refutation there! Besides, the issue i raised isnt Walt, it was YOUR post. Nice try to hide though.

Proof? Just read his post, it's such utter crap. Manifest Destiny? 3dfx's Imperialism? Their reliance on marketing because they have the mind set that they're invincibe? Whoa... what world was this in?

3dfx was reliant on marketing because they couldn't keep an engineering department with stable employees, because they had an architecture 4 years late, with 3-4 near total redesigns. Because they had no revenue, no investor support, no OEM basis. They had little developer support (it was a joke), little to look forward to other than the mythical "Rampage" - in essensce, they had nothing....

How about your comrade Walt explains how nVidia is in the same position with some empirical numbers instead of this "Manifest Destiny" rhetoric.
 
Vince said:
How about your comrade Walt explains how nVidia is in the same position with some empirical numbers instead of this "Manifest Destiny" rhetoric.
nice try to lump everyone together.
please. so you pride yoruself as a "Defender", eh?
maybe you should occasionally admit to the negative things your pet IHV has done recently.
Do i hate nVidia? Nope. Do i think the GFFX product line is shitty? Yeah, for the most part. Would most people here agree with that? Yep.
Will you? i dunno, it demands rationality, not your strong suite. It also means you cant lump everyone together as nVidia hating baby killers. :rolleyes:
 
Althornin said:
nice try to lump everyone together.

Um... if you say so. Although actually reading what's written will show that I've singled out Walt.

please. so you pride yoruself as a "Defender", eh?

I never said that, but if you wish to form such an opinion you may do so. It's pretty futile and not inline with my intentions, but you're going to say whatever you want anyways, so.

I draw the distinction between defending an entity at all costs against all attacks and singling out the psychos who post insane topics and thoughts and addressing those. If you actually look at my posting history wrt to the PC market, you'll see I rarely post at all on these topics. And when I do it's against people like Walt or some other similar calibur people.

maybe you should occasionally admit to the negative things your pet IHV has done recently
.

What part of "I don't care" are you not comprehending? I seriously have no use for these TFT games based on PR arguing points for any IHV or any entity in the PC market. I'm not defending nVidia, I'm attacking Walt for being a biased fool.

Do i hate nVidia? Nope. Do i think the GFFX product line is shitty? Yeah, for the most part. Would most people here agree with that? Yep.
Will you? i dunno, it demands rationality, not your strong suite.

  • I don't care if you like nVidia or ATI or Matrox in private or in public if you provide a strong foundation and support. How hard is this to comprehend? Your so polarized: nVidia & ATI, ATI & nVidia... all irrelevent.
  • I'm not rational? Alrighty. Believe what you want. Just realize that nobody asked me my opinion of nVidia - and I haven't given it, although it's not that hard to guess for those who remember me from ~2000. Just because I'm not an outgoing psycho who badmouths nVidia at every potentiality doesn't mean I like them.

It also means you cant lump everyone together as nVidia hating baby killers. :roll

Well, it sure as hell didn't take much for you - in particular - to label me a man with "blinders" whose defending "his IHV"... even though I never expressed MY opinion on the topic. Hey, if the name fits... just something to think about.
 
CorwinB said:

Yep, gotta agree, nice article they wrote :)
BTW, Vince, talking of 3DFX...

The influence of 3DFX in the NV3x and its failure is massively exaggerated by the press. 90%+ of the 3DFX engineers NVIDIA managed to hire worked on the nForce 2 IGP and MCPs, or other things; but generally not in the GPU division of the company.

Ironic how, for example, the R300 MSAA technology seems to have an awful lot more 3DFX influence than the NV30 MSAA technology. I'm mostly thinking of the "less Z units/pipeline than maximum number of samples"; the R3xx has 2 Z units/pipeline ( okay, so it's not really pipelines, it's all quads, but eh, let's not complicate matters for no reason, shall we? :p ) but it can do MSAA up to 6 samples/pixel.


At the same time, the nForce 2's excellent audio is probably thanks to the Aureal engineers NVIDIA hired when they bought the 3DFX IP...

History will always be full of lies. I guess that just means the ones who did have an insider perspective can rest in peace, knowing they've not been misled by this so-called "common sense". ;)


Uttar
 
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