Multiproccessor and multitasking in next gen consoles

[marconelly!]

Re: ...

PSX3

What does X stand for in PSX3?

Who uses their PSX2 to ... play DVDs??? How many people have bought the DVD player remote controller for Xbox??

Er... VERY many people...

 

[Paul]

Sony is going with a proprietary memory technology, so they wouldn't just be able to pick a standard memory device later.

It's not proprietary, it's Yellowstone built to go in a range of devices. Yellowstone and Redstone aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Chip might be done earlier, but it has no soul(The OS)...

And how exactly do you know that the Cell OS isn't in heavy development now and is going to be ready by 2005? You have no evidence to support this claim yet you insist on brining it up.

Are you really insisting that Sony and IBM aren't going to meet the goal of putting Cell into PS3 despite them spending billions and making press releases stating that the processor would be in the machine? I kinda think that Sony knows what they are doing and aren't as stupid as you seem to claim (or want to think) and let the chip get delayed and the next installment of their biggest selling product(playstation) get trashed because of this.

I also found it funny how you didn't respond to this, or infact couldnt?

"Despite Kutagari saying the chip will launch in 2005, Launch meaning the chip will actually come inside some device."

Kutagari and many others within the Cell project have said that Cell will launch 2005, meaning it will be in some type of device. But I thought the OS wouldn't be done?

Not to mention, Cell taped out A LONG time ago(Around summer 2002) are you telling me they(IBM) haven't been doing anything software wise from this time until now?

 

[Paul]

Er... VERY many people...

I can vouch for the Xbox part. Just about all my friends have the remote.. and most Xbox's I see have got it.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

..

It's not proprietary, it's Yellowstone built to go in a range of devices. Yellowstone and Redstone aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Of course they are proprietary; only insanes and idiots would adapt any Rambus tech now..

And how exactly do you know that the Cell OS isn't in heavy development now and is going to be ready by 2005?

Because OS engineering always takes much more time than the hardware...

Are you really insisting that Sony and IBM aren't going to meet the goal of putting Cell into PS3 despite them spending billions and making press releases stating that the processor would be in the machine?

Give me the URL to press release stating that CELL will be in PSX3.

I kinda think that Sony knows what they are doing and aren't as stupid as you seem to claim

They don't know what they are doing; poor engineers are overworking to materialize the dream of a madman who got carried away with his first success. Developers are already running scared of what kind of beast PSX3 will turn out to be. Imagine the "shock and awe" among developers when they are handed over a crude machine that barely boots and told, "We are done, now you make it dance".

"Despite Kutagari saying the chip will launch in 2005, Launch meaning the chip will actually come inside some device."

Some device, could be anything. Maybe Sony wants to get back into workstation biz...

are you telling me they(IBM) haven't been doing anything software wise from this time until now?

If the CELL OS is somekind of Linux port that presents VUs as a bunch of device files to programmers, forget it. CELL is doomed.

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

From the patent document, it seems that Sony's development strategy is to provide developers with some kind of object container to fill in data and code; the CELL OS will then presumably shift the object container around various VUs to guarantee optimal processing, but the patent document makes no mention of thread data synchronization; this scheme is no better than MPI, somethings automated, but the most critical parts left out to developers.

 

[Psychogenics]

Sony and IBM are working on they're own version of linux most likely you'll see it be on the cell chip...

 

[notAFanB]

They don't know what they are doing; poor engineers are overworking to materialize the dream of a madman who got carried away with his first success. Developers are already running scared of what kind of beast PSX3 will turn out to be. Imagine the "shock and awe" among developers when they are handed over a crude machine that barely boots and told, "We are done, now you make it dance".

whileI agree that he's overated are you impliing a group of trained monkeys could do a better job?

 

[Panajev2001a]

They don't know what they are doing; poor engineers are overworking to materialize the dream of a madman who got carried away with his first success. Developers are already running scared of what kind of beast PSX3 will turn out to be. Imagine the "shock and awe" among developers when they are handed over a crude machine that barely boots and told, "We are done, now you make it dance".

How can I reply to this ? How can anyone keep trying to make sense knowing that this is the kind of reply we get ?

If the CELL OS is somekind of Linux port that presents VUs as a bunch of device files to programmers, forget it. CELL is doomed.

You love the "doom" word don't you ?

Because OS engineering always takes much more time than the hardware...

Perfect... the biggest part of the design of the architecture for the CPU and GPU of PlayStation 3 will be mostly done by the middle of next year and the only thing that will be left will be debugging of the Hardware and ramping up yelds and produce up to speed working samples...

The Software work will continue... nobody sees the PlayStation 3 shipping much earlier than late 2005 anyways so that gives more than 1 year and a half for the software people to finish their work on the OS after the Hardware is "done"...

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

The Software work will continue... nobody sees the PlayStation 3 shipping much earlier than late 2005 anyways so that gives more than 1 year and a half for the software people to finish their work on the OS after the Hardware is "done"...

You talk as writing a modern OS is as easy as building a processor.

 

[chaphack]

I hope Cell modern OS will allows for realtime multitasking.

 

[notAFanB]

Re: ...

The Software work will continue... nobody sees the PlayStation 3 shipping much earlier than late 2005 anyways so that gives more than 1 year and a half for the software people to finish their work on the OS after the Hardware is "done"...

You talk as writing a modern OS is as easy as building a processor.

interesing. in your opinion how much more/less complex would a gaming OS (not neccesarily CELL related) need to be?

what the extra bagage that Consumer OS tend to carry?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Re: ...

The Software work will continue... nobody sees the PlayStation 3 shipping much earlier than late 2005 anyways so that gives more than 1 year and a half for the software people to finish their work on the OS after the Hardware is "done"...

You talk as writing a modern OS is as easy as building a processor.

You talk as if they started writing the OS from scratch yesterday...

With almost 2 full years more than what the HW took ( total development time of the OS = HW development + ~2 years ) Sony, IBM and Toshiba can write the Software for Cell.

Your argument is not logical... you are basically stating that the OS won't be ready... because... well, basically because "you said so"...

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

in your opinion how much more/less complex would a gaming OS (not neccesarily CELL related) need to be?

Comparable to Linux or NT for Xbox2... You just don't run some of server processes on game console. Other than that, should be pretty comparable.. In case of CELL, an even greater complexity is required.

Your argument is not logical... you are basically stating that the OS won't be ready... because... welll, basically beacause "you said so"...

If the CELL OS is a mere Linux port then it will be ready soon but developers will be sticking a gun in their mouth trying to deal with 128 VUs Sony claimed with have stuck inside CELL.

If CELL OS is something that's truely innovative and provides a complete abstraction of hardware, then you probably will not see a stabilized OS until 2008.

 

[Panajev2001a]

If the CELL OS is a mere Linux port then it will be ready soon but developers will be sticking a gun in their mouth trying to deal with 128 VUs Sony claimed with have stuck inside CELL.

If CELL OS is something that's truely innovative and provides a complete abstraction of hardware, then you probably will not see a stabilized OS until 2008.

How interesting... they basically have failed before shipping the finished product...

Also interesting to note is the fact that you do not see a third way with the Cell OS shipping to developers ( they would have early betas and simulators ) without needi9ng until 2008 to be stabilized...

Of course your defense is "truly innovative... complete abstraction of the Hardware"...

Sure, innovative things take time... but the falacy is that you have no cluse at what point of the OS development IBM is and you are basing your "doom" statements on basically nothign but... again... your "because I say so"...

Sweet memories of pre-PlayStation 2 launch when you were painting an equally "doomed if they do, doomed if they don't... they have no choice and even if they had they are too dumb to choose one... doomed... doomed they are..." scenario predicting how horribly would this "enfant terrible" perform and how hard it would be crushed by the competition and developers jumping ship at the first opportunity...

Your lack of bias ( ahem ) is truly surprising...

 

[notAFanB]

If CELL OS is something that's truely innovative and provides a complete abstraction of hardware, then you probably will not see a stabilized OS until 2008.

interesting, again I remain optimistic. is there no middle ground wherebye under your scenario for sony top make the launch 'and' include CELL in PS3?

 

[DeadmeatGA]

...

How interesting... they basically have failed before shipping the finished product...

Some things are already failures even before they hit the market.

Also interesting to note is the fact that you do not see a third way with the Cell OS shipping to developers ( they would have early betas and simulators ) without needi9ng until 2008 to be stabilized...

PSX3 with an innovated OS will not be shipped until the OS is stabilized, no matter how long the alpha and beta have been available...

scenario predicting how horribly would this "enfant terrible" perform

PSX2 performs no better than DC in the hands of most developers, thus the PSX2 architecture is indeed a failure.

 

[speng]

I believe Final Fantasy allows you to play the game, connect online for faq and information, and guides.

That is multitasking on the PS2 at the game level.

Speng.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Re: ...

How interesting... they basically have failed before shipping the finished product...

Some things are already failures even before they hit the market.

I could go on with the topic "who cares if Mr. Deadmeat think it is a failure, but marketshare will speak for itself", but what would be the point when you already came to such a a strong ( ahem ) conclusion ?

Also interesting to note is the fact that you do not see a third way with the Cell OS shipping to developers ( they would have early betas and simulators ) without needi9ng until 2008 to be stabilized...

PSX3 with an innovated OS will not be shipped until the OS is stabilized, no matter how long the alpha and beta have been available...

And this is prooving what ? How does what you just say relate to your claim of no good Cell OS before 2008 ?

Oh wait... you said PSX3... of course... the 3rd iteration of this year's PSX I get you... 2008... wow... are you telling me PSX will have its third revision so early ?

scenario predicting how horribly would this "enfant terrible" perform

PSX2 performs no better than DC in the hands of most developers, thus the PSX2 architecture is indeed a failure.

Another gem from you...

PM me when you have bought a PlayStation 2 and have begun playing some games like Silent Hill 2 or 3, Z.O.E. 2, MGS2, GT3, FFX, Madden 2003, ICO, Primal, The Getaway, WRC2, etc... and finished comparing your Dreamcast on that Computer monitor to those Gamespot screen grabs...

 

[Panajev2001a]

Re: ...

How interesting... they basically have failed before shipping the finished product...

Some things are already failures even before they hit the market.

I could go on with the topic "who cares if Mr. Deadmeat think it is a failure, but marketshare will speak for itself", but what would be the point when you already came to such a a strong ( ahem ) conclusion ?

Also interesting to note is the fact that you do not see a third way with the Cell OS shipping to developers ( they would have early betas and simulators ) without needi9ng until 2008 to be stabilized...

PSX3 with an innovated OS will not be shipped until the OS is stabilized, no matter how long the alpha and beta have been available...

And this is prooving what ? How does what you just say relate to your claim of no good Cell OS before 2008 ?

Oh wait... you said PSX3... of course... the 3rd iteration of this year's PSX I get you... 2008... wow... are you telling me PSX will have its third revision so early ?

scenario predicting how horribly would this "enfant terrible" perform

PSX2 performs no better than DC in the hands of most developers, thus the PSX2 architecture is indeed a failure.

Another gem from you...

PM me when you have bought a PlayStation 2 and have begun playing some games like Silent Hill 2 or 3, Z.O.E. 2, MGS2, GT3, FFX, Madden 2003, ICO, Primal, The Getaway, WRC2, Tekken Tag Tournament, Tekken 4, Soul Calubur II,. etc... and finished comparing your Dreamcast on that Computer monitor to those Gamespot screen grabs...

 

[Panajev2001a]

Re: ...

How interesting... they basically have failed before shipping the finished product...

Some things are already failures even before they hit the market.

I could go on with the topic "who cares if Mr. Deadmeat think it is a failure, but marketshare will speak for itself", but what would be the point when you already came to such a a strong ( ahem ) conclusion ?

Also interesting to note is the fact that you do not see a third way with the Cell OS shipping to developers ( they would have early betas and simulators ) without needi9ng until 2008 to be stabilized...

PSX3 with an innovated OS will not be shipped until the OS is stabilized, no matter how long the alpha and beta have been available...

And this is prooving what ? How does what you just say relate to your claim of no good Cell OS before 2008 ?

Oh wait... you said PSX3... of course... the 3rd iteration of this year's PSX I get you... 2008... wow... are you telling me PSX will have its third revision so early ?

scenario predicting how horribly would this "enfant terrible" perform

PSX2 performs no better than DC in the hands of most developers, thus the PSX2 architecture is indeed a failure.

Another gem from you...

PM me when you have bought a PlayStation 2 and have begun playing some games like Silent Hill 2 or 3, Z.O.E. 2, MGS2, GT3, FFX, Madden 2003, ICO, Primal, The Getaway, WRC2, Tekken Tag Tournament, Tekken 4, Soul Calubur II,. etc... and finished comparing your Dreamcast on that Computer monitor to those Gamespot screen grabs of PlayStation 2 games...