MS ensures this gen and next gen dominance

[milk]

Ok, let´s try to keep the thread in topic. This is the MS Italian Culinary and Dish Semantics Forums, posts regarding asian food should be redirected to the Thai-food hardware speculation, or the Chinese food screen-shot analysis threads. And lets try to keep the Pie vs. Pizza fanboyisms out of the discussion and be as objective as possible here guys. I´ve heard Digital Foundry will do an article on the technical details of Pizza Hut´s dough´s composition, and other aspects of their toping´s ingredients. This might shed more light into the (rumor heavy) conversation.

 

[upnorthsox]

Ok, let´s try to keep the thread in topic. This is the MS Italian Culinary and Dish Semantics Forums, posts regarding asian food should be redirected to the Thai-food hardware speculation, or the Chinese food screen-shot analysis threads. And lets try to keep the Pie vs. Pizza fanboyisms out of the discussion and be as objective as possible here guys. I´ve heard Digital Foundry will do an article on the technical details of Pizza Hut´s dough´s composition, and other aspects of their toping´s ingredients. This might shed more light into the (rumor heavy) conversation.

No, that's the Two Guys from China thread.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Except that in the US, the term "pie" referring to what is now known as pizza (with the tomato sauce base) predated the use of the word pizza in referring to the same.

It also should be noted that it was immigrant Italians themselves who named them pies.

I'd argue that they were at fault in that regard. The word 'pizza' is effectively 'pie' in foreign, so in the native language of the pizza originators (Greeks, Italians, going by pizza's development history), they were making pies, but these are different pies to the English pies. So when the two cultures collided in the New World, and the Italian immigrants brought in their food but adopted the new language, they apparently named their food-stuff with the Anglicised form. This however introduced a conflict with the already establish pie. Had they been content to maintain their national name and stuck with pizza (as adopted in the UK who are clearly unwilling to confuse a proper, filling, nutritious pie with some artsy-farsty baked open sandwich), this confusion wouldn't exist. It's really just another case of the Americans fumbling around with their language and failing to manage polluting influences from various immigrants, such that they have issues with 'biscuit' and use the Dutch derived 'cookie' as if the English biscuit wasn't good enough for them, and they turned their back on the mother-tongue and had a cheap fling with foreign words and now don't know what pants and chips are.

If you add Thai, Indian, and Mexican to that, then I'm all in.

Unfortunately, there's no national food chain for any of those that delivers. Which means it's unlikely to happen.

Regards,
SB

Scarily getting close to being relevant to this forum, as these apps already exist on other platforms, it's not a long stretch to provide an app interface to whatever services a gamer might want. MS will surely have that with Win 8 apps. If anyone makes a Win 8 take-away app, I expect it to be supported on Durango. Sony would have to branch out into something like Android, maybe an Android implementation with a subset of available apps filtered through their store.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I'd argue that they were at fault in that regard. The word 'pizza' is effectively 'pie' in foreign, so in the native language of the pizza originators (Greeks, Italians, going by pizza's development history), they were making pies, but these are different pies to the English pies. So when the two cultures collided in the New World, and the Italian immigrants brought in their food but adopted the new language, they apparently named their food-stuff with the Anglicised form. This however introduced a conflict with the already establish pie. Had they been content to maintain their national name and stuck with pizza (as adopted in the UK who are clearly unwilling to confuse a proper, filling, nutritious pie with some artsy-farsty baked open sandwich), this confusion wouldn't exist. It's really just another case of the Americans fumbling around with their language and failing to manage polluting influences from various immigrants, such that they have issues with 'biscuit' and use the Dutch derived 'cookie' as if the English biscuit wasn't good enough for them, and they turned their back on the mother-tongue and had a cheap fling with foreign words and now don't know what pants and chips are.

Well, since we're shooting for the moon here.

It's not quite so easy. Whereas with England you had a somewhat clear progression of influences that each supplanted or supplemented the existing culture (Celtic -> Roman -> Angles/Saxons/Jutes -> Normans) the United States wasn't quite so defined.

Even taking the original 13 colonies, you had various states which were predominantly settled by the Dutch, Germans or English. Then later welcoming immigrants (reluctantly and with great animosity for a large minority of existing Americans) from Ireland, Italy, etc. Large contingents of the French (Louisiana among others) and Spanish (California, etc.) and even Portugese (Hawai'i which also brought along Chinese, Japanese, and Filipinos with the Polynesians although we already had a lot of Chinese that were "imported" during the California gold rush). And, of course, the sad history of Africans being introduced. Although the Chinese weren't much better. Did you know that back before the 1900's most Chinese in the western states were not allowed to live above ground. If you go through and visit many of the ghost towns you can still find the underground cities that the Chinese were forced to live in. Heck depending on where you live, you even have some Native American words making its way into the American English lexicon.

So, while England certainly has the largest influence it isn't by a whole lot. The US really was and is a melting pot of cultural influences.

Anyway, long story short. American English is littered with words and phrases from a huge variety of cultures just because the USA was founded and grew via inclusion of a large variety of cultures. The most popular beer is a Lager (Germanic origins), one of our favorites dishes is Spaghetti (Italian influence) with French bread (obvious influence). Etc.

Anyway, yes. The pizza as introduced in the US was called a Pie by the Italian immigrants. Or Pizza Pie.

All this just made me interested in the etymology of the word.

http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=pizza&allowed_in_frame=0

Interesting. So, people are correct in calling it a pie, tart, or cake. It's all in how you want to translate the original word.

Interestingly the word "pizzeria" appears to be an American invention...

http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=pizzeria&allowed_in_frame=0

I'm glad this thread isn't serious or prevented from going off on wild tangents. Some of the things in here are terribly interesting.

Regards,
SB

 

[AzBat]

Epic thread! Hall of fame status?

Tommy McClain

 

[BRiT]

Epic thread! Hall of fame status?

I don't know, but it's at least worthy of a piece of pie!

 

[AzBat]

I don't know, but it's at least worthy of a piece of pie!

Touché! LOL

Tommy McClain

 

[Blazkowicz]

Beware , not for the faint of heart

 

[tuna]

Pizza in Japan used to be the same way back in the 80's. Pizza there is pretty darn good now though. So perhaps in 20-30 years China will also have good pizza.

Regards,
SB

All italian food I have had in Japan have been excellent!

 

[Cjail]

Interestingly the word "pizzeria" appears to be an American invention...

Nope my friend.
The suffix "eria" has always been used in Italian in combination with the name of the good to identify the store that sells that good.
Examples: birreria, caffetteria, cartoleria, merceria, salumeria, gioielleria, etc...

 

[Devious]

I will say I have enjoyed reading through this thread. A lot of interesting discussions.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Anyway, yes. The pizza as introduced in the US was called a Pie by the Italian immigrants. Or Pizza Pie.

But that's where they went wrong. Clearly and evidently. What do you call spaghetti - "spaghetti" or "thin ropes"? And tortellini - "stuffed pastry" or "tortellini"? Do you refer to tortillas as "tortillas" or "cakes"? All these regional dishes kept their regional names, with speakers of other languages adopting the new words to talk about the new foods, aiding the distinction between cultural foods of the same name. We don't Anglicise any other foodstuffs, so why pizza?

I'd have thought the United Nations Language Enforcement team would be imposing serious sanctions on countries referring to pizza as 'pie' in English by now. I guess this proves the UN lacks teeth.

As an aside and indicator to how people mutilate the English language for their own biased reasons, a local headmistress decreed that tomato ketchup was not to be called "ketchup" as that was an Americanism, and instead the children have to call their tomato ketchup "tomato mayonnaise", completely ignoring the definition of mayonnaise as as specific recipe sauce. In an ideal world, only highly-trained, self-appointed language Nazi's like myself would be exerting any control over the development of a language.

 

[Cjail]

If you are a grammar/language Nazi Shifty Geezer then you should enjoy this.

Anyway:

The limits of my language are the limits of my mind. All I know is what I have words for.
-Ludwig Wittgenstein

 

[Blazkowicz]

"Tortilla" is completely fucked up. I had always been confused as to what were tortilla, tacos and burritos exactly - I'm not an USian and never have been to a mexican restaurant to know first hand.

I was happy to learn that the tortilla is the mastered potato + egg dish. Great! Sounds like the ideal low cost meal - potato is dirt cheap if you buy 5kg or 10kg of it, and egg is the cheapest source of animal proteins. I don't eat eggs enough often. They even sell some premade ones packed sous-vide at the supermarket (too expensive next to making one).

Then, wtf! I google it and it's the damn maïze bread afterall . I can't accept this.
Please call it something other.
I saw some TV piece last years that showed spanish people out of jobs, living with their parents again, decreased incomes you name it and they were eating tortilla. That was not a burritos sandwich at all.

 

[Blazkowicz]

As an aside and indicator to how people mutilate the English language for their own biased reasons, a local headmistress decreed that tomato ketchup was not to be called "ketchup" as that was an Americanism, and instead the children have to call their tomato ketchup "tomato mayonnaise", completely ignoring the definition of mayonnaise as as specific recipe sauce. In an ideal world, only highly-trained, self-appointed language Nazi's like myself would be exerting any control over the development of a language.

That's incredible, she could at least have picked "tomato condiment".
But let's accept you call ketchup "tomato mayonnaise". Then, what about mayonnaise? (the actual sauce) That's a Frenchism.
You ought to call it something else, such as "egg-and-oil ketchup".

 

[zed]

Wrt pizza hut. Here in Malaysia its like it was in nz 30 years ago.
You went in but had to wait to be seated a menu was brought to you etc.

 

[Pressure]

Pizza is the easiest and probably one of the cheapest things to make.

Make dough, sprinkle it with desired ingredients, throw in a preheated oven for 15 minutes, done.

And homemade pizza just tastes better.

 

[tuna]

Pizza is the easiest and probably one of the cheapest things to make.

Make dough, sprinkle it with desired ingredients, throw in a preheated oven for 15 minutes, done.

And homemade pizza just tastes better.

To make a really nice pizza you need really good dough and a special oven.The dough can take a lot of time and most people do not have the proper oven at home.

 

[RobertR1]

Pizza is the easiest and probably one of the cheapest things to make.

Make dough, sprinkle it with desired ingredients, throw in a preheated oven for 15 minutes, done.

And homemade pizza just tastes better.

Homemade pizza only tastes better if you had a true pizza oven and go in on expensive ingredients. My buddy built one and yes, when we do it right, it's great. however, it's much easier (and cheaper) to find a top notch pizza place locally.

 

[(((interference)))]

I'd argue that they were at fault in that regard. The word 'pizza' is effectively 'pie' in foreign, so in the native language of the pizza originators (Greeks, Italians, going by pizza's development history), they were making pies, but these are different pies to the English pies. So when the two cultures collided in the New World, and the Italian immigrants brought in their food but adopted the new language, they apparently named their food-stuff with the Anglicised form. This however introduced a conflict with the already establish pie. Had they been content to maintain their national name and stuck with pizza (as adopted in the UK who are clearly unwilling to confuse a proper, filling, nutritious pie with some artsy-farsty baked open sandwich), this confusion wouldn't exist. It's really just another case of the Americans fumbling around with their language and failing to manage polluting influences from various immigrants, such that they have issues with 'biscuit' and use the Dutch derived 'cookie' as if the English biscuit wasn't good enough for them, and they turned their back on the mother-tongue and had a cheap fling with foreign words and now don't know what pants and chips are.

Well said Shifty!

Yes, if the Italian immigrants really called it pie, then that was a mistake - as pizza is both what the native Italians call it and also clearly differentiates the food item from 'pies' - which a pizza is not really like.

Naming it a pie and then adding the qualifier 'pizza' (pizza pie) is inefficient and erroneous verbiage.